Angels, Nationals in mix for Gerardo Parra

[OregonLAA]

Blackmon

Escobar

Trout

Pujols

Calhoun

Yes pleass

[Blarg]

Eppler has not made a single move that addresses any long term issues with this team.

Aybar was in his walk year. Simmons is not only an upgrade but a long term improvement.

[jsnpritchett]

Parra was worth 0.7 WAR in 2014-2015 combined. That isn't even replacement level, is it?

 

You do know what WAR stands for, right...?

[wopphil]

You do know what WAR stands for, right...?

It has always been my understanding a "replacement" level player actually contributes more than 0.0 WAR. Perhaps I am confusing league average with replacement.

In any event, you ought to get the point I am trying to make. 0.7 WAR over two seasons is terrible.

[AngelsLakersFan]

Aybar was in his walk year. Simmons is not only an upgrade but a long term improvement.

 

At the cost of our only two prospects. I like the move in the present tense, but Newcomb could very easily end up far more valuable than Simmons and at a fraction of the cost. For a team with apparently no money, no farm system, and a limited desire to win now, it's a big step backwards for the future of this organization.

[zenmaster]

It seems like ages ago (not one year) that we were all optimistic about our new LF Joyce.

[Erstad Grit]

At the cost of our only two prospects. I like the move in the present tense, but Newcomb could very easily end up far more valuable than Simmons and at a fraction of the cost. For a team with apparently no money, no farm system, and a limited desire to win now, it's a big step backwards for the future of this organization.

 

In that scenario Featherston is the SS for 2017 

[Blarg]

At the cost of our only two prospects. I like the move in the present tense, but Newcomb could very easily end up far more valuable than Simmons and at a fraction of the cost. For a team with apparently no money, no farm system, and a limited desire to win now, it's a big step backwards for the future of this organization.

The Angels have pitching, a surplus still and can even buy pitching going forward but what they didn't have in their farm was a Shortstop. And they couldn't buy a Simmons quality shortstop next season, not at any cost.

Aybar is no Jeter, they were not wanting to move forward with his declining skills and offer an extension. This was a necessary move for the present and future of the organization. Newcomb may become an excellent pitcher but that was not going to materialize in 2016 for the Angels. It may never realize itself for the Braves, he is a prospect not a proven commodity. The Braves took a risk, the Angels took a sure thing.

[AngelsLakersFan]

The Angels have pitching, a surplus still and can even buy pitching going forward but what they didn't have in their farm was a Shortstop. And they couldn't buy a Simmons quality shortstop next season, not at any cost.

Aybar is no Jeter, they were not wanting to move forward with his declining skills and offer an extension. This was a necessary move for the present and future of the organization. Newcomb may become an excellent pitcher but that was not going to materialize in 2016 for the Angels. It may never realize itself for the Braves, he is a prospect not a proven commodity. The Braves took a risk, the Angels took a sure thing.

 

I agree, we solved the position in 2017 but it is questionable just how competitive we are going to be in 2017. Losing guys like Newcomb and Ellis impacts our ability to be competitive in 2018 and beyond. Yes Simmons will be a valuable piece for us over the next few years, but he could've been a valuable piece for the Braves as well. The reason they traded him for Newcomb and Ellis is because they are looking to be competitive in 2018 and beyond. This trade is not the worst thing in the world, but it is sacrificing potential future value in exchange for a sure thing in the present. In that sense the Simmons trade is not a trade that looks to improve the future of the organization, it is a poor value move in response to the organizations lack of depth and unwillingness to spend money.

[Blarg]

Potential future value is a hard thing to pencil onto a roster. Also, Ellis was not that highly ranked so he has even less chance to have made a difference.

But more importantly a pitcher can only influence the outcome of a game when he pitches. That is once in five games for a starter. Simmons will be influencing the outcome damn near every game from now and for the next five seasons at a defensive level well above the SS currently in baseball.

Simmons is like getting the number 1 pick in the draft. We gave up a #15 to do it. You could do this in the NFL or NBA, trade players and draft picks. In baseball you have to wait a year after the draft to make those moves. This is that move except we know Simmons is a #1 type player while Newcomb has to prove he is a #15.

[Docwaukee]

The Simmons trade is your standard present value for future value.  Potential future value is worth less than realized present value.  We were obviously willing to sacrifice more in future potential value to get a player who brings value now.  

 

Whether the player brings that value on a daily basis, once every five days or 4 at bats per game is irrelevant.  The accumulated value is the accumulated value.  I also don't understand the relevance of where the player is picked.  The second the draft has ended, the location of where a player is picked become irrelevant.  

 

the most relevant thing in regards to a trade where you give up future value for current is what does that current value do for you?  Frankly, that issue is bigger to me that whether we got appropriate value.  Because the latter is mostly subjective and can't be realized for a few years.  

 

So does the 2 WAR simmons brings above Aybar make sense?  Granted, he still has significant value on the trade market and likely will for almost his entire current contract.  But what does 2 WAR do when you have other holes to fill?  I am not gonna argue that we should spend.  My feelings are that are known.  Regardless of how it gets done, complete the process.  If you aren't gonna finish it, don't start it.  If you don't have the money or org currency to to complement or be consistent with a move such as acquiring simmons, then does it make sense?  

 

Hopefully, they aren't done, but it's why I've been so critical to this point.  

[Blarg]

Doc it's not about a 2 war increase it is the exponential value of a 5 war player over a declining 2.3 war that will be gone in a year leaving a larger hole to fill. You are both tunnel visioning and wanting to have your prospect at the same time for the future but SS was a hole that would go critical after this season. Pitching will not.

You are a doctor, do you ignore a known health issue because you want to keep a stock of penicillin for a possible fever two years from now? There is a difference between do no harm and doing nothing and hoping the problem will go away.

[tomsred]

The Simmons trade is your standard present value for future value.  Potential future value is worth less than realized present value.  We were obviously willing to sacrifice more in future potential value to get a player who brings value now.  

 

Whether the player brings that value on a daily basis, once every five days or 4 at bats per game is irrelevant.  The accumulated value is the accumulated value.  I also don't understand the relevance of where the player is picked.  The second the draft has ended, the location of where a player is picked become irrelevant.  

 

the most relevant thing in regards to a trade where you give up future value for current is what does that current value do for you?  Frankly, that issue is bigger to me that whether we got appropriate value.  Because the latter is mostly subjective and can't be realized for a few years.  

 

So does the 2 WAR simmons brings above Aybar make sense?  Granted, he still has significant value on the trade market and likely will for almost his entire current contract.  But what does 2 WAR do when you have other holes to fill?  I am not gonna argue that we should spend.  My feelings are that are known.  Regardless of how it gets done, complete the process.  If you aren't gonna finish it, don't start it.  If you don't have the money or org currency to to complement or be consistent with a move such as acquiring simmons, then does it make sense?  

 

Hopefully, they aren't done, but it's why I've been so critical to this point.  

 

Maybe the point is not to be done this year.  Maybe the point is to be done in two years, or three years.  You can't always control when opportunistic opportunities come your way.  Simmons was a deal that came earlier than expected, but fit too well into that two or three year improvement window to pass up now, even if it meant that you can't finish the plan this year because of financial barriers.  So you move on and try to improve the financial situation, patch up the remaining bad spots to the best of your ability, and compete to the best of your ability knowing full well that bad patches are still present.  When you can't do a full rebuild (big market teams generally do not do rebuilds), and you have limited internal resources player wise and financially, this is the only alternative you have left to your disposal.  Virtually every day the situation changes, players become available, players drop away or are signed elsewhere, and the cost of individual players changes due to supply and demand.  It seems like things are going super slowly, but there are no game day distractions right now, meaning we are hyper-focused on assembling names on paper.  I admit, it's a fun thing when so many statistical measures are available, but even that is a flawed process. 

 

When we reach opening day this year we aren't going to be driving a brand new, high performance car.  We are going to have a used one with some mechanical problems.  How the problems get patched up and handled as the year progresses will determine how far across the country we can travel, and what kind of shape we are in when and if we arrive for the playoffs.  Right now our left fender is missing, and rocks keep hitting the engine, so we put a cardboard fender on that is probably going to burn up.  But if Mad Max can travel Fury Road maybe we can to.

 

Edited January 10, 2016 by tomsred

[Docwaukee]

Doc it's not about a 2 war increase it is the exponential value of a 5 war player over a declining 2.3 war that will be gone in a year leaving a larger hole to fill. You are both tunnel visioning and wanting to have your prospect at the same time for the future but SS was a hole that would go critical after this season. Pitching will not.

You are a doctor, do you ignore a known health issue because you want to keep a stock of penicillin for a possible fever two years from now? There is a difference between do no harm and doing nothing and hoping the problem will go away.

what is the point of filling a hole at SS for the next five years yet ignoring a massive hole at another position that has already gone critical.  I use a similar ridiculous uninformed analogy from your industry.  The network is down and instead of fixing it, and you are addressing next years necessary hardware upgrades.  

 

If this were a medical problem, LF would be the current infection that we are treating with a hot pack and some mint gum.  SS is the knee replacement you know your're gonna need in a year but you treat the symptoms while you can.  

 

Talk about tunnel vision.  You still had a whole year to find a SS before the position needed to be addressed.  On top of it, and this is completely sad to say, Featherston at SS is probably better than Nava/Gentry in LF.  

[Docwaukee]

Maybe the point is not to be done this year.  Maybe the point is to be done in two years, or three years.  You can't always control when opportunistic opportunities come your way.  Simmons was a deal that came earlier than expected, but fit too well into that two or three year improvement window to pass up now, even if it meant that you can't finish the plan this year because of financial barriers.  So you move on and try to improve the financial situation, patch up the remaining bad spots to the best of your ability, and compete to the best of your ability knowing full well that bad patches are still present.  When you can't do a full rebuild (big market teams generally do not do rebuilds), and you have limited internal resources player wise and financially, this is the only alternative you have left to your disposal.  Virtually every day the situation changes, players become available, players drop away or are signed elsewhere, and the cost of individual players changes due to supply and demand.  It seems like things are going super slowly, but there are no game day distractions right now, meaning we are hyper-focused on assembling names on paper.  I admit, it's a fun thing when so many statistical measures are available, but even that is a flawed process. 

 

When we reach opening day this year we aren't going to be driving a brand new, high performance car.  We are going to have a used one with some mechanical problems.  How the problems get patched up and handled as the year progresses will determine how far across the country we can travel, and what kind of shape we are in when and if we arrive for the playoffs.  Right now our left fender is missing, and rocks keep hitting the engine, so we put a cardboard fender on that is probably going to burn up.  But if Mad Max can travel Fury Road maybe we can to.

 

 

So we are taking the opportunity to acquire a player that is going to help us win in 2018.  To fill a position that is going to be vacant after this year?  And we aren't addressing our other more pressing issues for this year and next because we don't have the money to do so.  But we are going to spend that money in 2018 to make the team better?  

 

Ok.  Then why add Escboar and trade Gott?  Why not trade Santiago at his peak value?  Why keep Wilson?  and Smith and Street and even Richards (who will be in his final year of arb in 2018)?

 

You want to prep the team to open your window in 2018?  Fine.  Do it.  If you aren't going to reach the finish line in your POS cardboard fendered vehicle, don't waste the gas money.  Keep the engine and sell the remaining parts so that in a couple of years you'll have a car that can truly compete in the race.   

 

If they want to try to sell the fan base a bill of goods then more power to them.  It will probably work and 3 million people are gonna show up.  Maybe being kinda good on paper is smart just in case we get lucky and get to the playoffs.  

 

But my theory is different.  By doing what they are doing I see a team destined for mediocrity or even worse, one that is on the fringe without being able to get over that hump.  When that happens, it self propagates.  In the last 5 years we have finished seasons with 85, 86, and 89 wins and have missed the playoffs in each of those years.   We are headed in the same direction for the next two years and I am not sure why 2018 would be any different.  They are gonna need even more replacements by that time.  Play for now or don't.  

[Revad]

Some nice writing on this page by smart people. If Arte doesn't relent we will have missed a golden opportunity and won't be a top notch team this year, I definitely agree. Still I doubt this roster is the team that plays on opening day- a pitcher will be dealt and either 2b or LF will be upgraded. This is not as bad a team as some say, and if Trout stays healthy we can still be the playoffs this year.

[tomsred]

So we are taking the opportunity to acquire a player that is going to help us win in 2018.  To fill a position that is going to be vacant after this year?  And we aren't addressing our other more pressing issues for this year and next because we don't have the money to do so.  But we are going to spend that money in 2018 to make the team better?  

 

Ok.  Then why add Escboar and trade Gott?  Why not trade Santiago at his peak value?  Why keep Wilson?  and Smith and Street and even Richards (who will be in his final year of arb in 2018)?

 

You want to prep the team to open your window in 2018?  Fine.  Do it.  If you aren't going to reach the finish line in your POS cardboard fendered vehicle, don't waste the gas money.  Keep the engine and sell the remaining parts so that in a couple of years you'll have a car that can truly compete in the race.   

 

If they want to try to sell the fan base a bill of goods then more power to them.  It will probably work and 3 million people are gonna show up.  Maybe being kinda good on paper is smart just in case we get lucky and get to the playoffs.  

 

But my theory is different.  By doing what they are doing I see a team destined for mediocrity or even worse, one that is on the fringe without being able to get over that hump.  When that happens, it self propagates.  In the last 5 years we have finished seasons with 85, 86, and 89 wins and have missed the playoffs in each of those years.   We are headed in the same direction for the next two years and I am not sure why 2018 would be any different.  They are gonna need even more replacements by that time.  Play for now or don't.  

 

Doc, actually I don't really know that when Eppler started this off season he was given a firm direction with regard to his limits, financially.  I actually think that when he began his tenure here his mission was to improve the team into a contender.  I think that changed when Arte saw the price tags on the free agents being signed, and what they wanted.  He imposed financial limitations in the face of escalating player salary expenses, and Eppler was probably left holding the bag, so to speak.  Therefore half of the process got curtailed because of emerging facts with regard to luxury tax considerations, and overall cash flow.  Arte's usual methodology is that he heavily supports his new GM's to get them off to a flying start, screw the financial limits.  This time he is apparently not going to do that.

 

What you are suggesting is akin to a rebuild.  That has never been the philosophy here, it's been more like a re-tool on the fly if you will.  And that is more like tearing some things apart for a couple of years, and emerging more quickly than going into the dark ages for 5-10 years or more while young prospects are trained, sorted out, and groomed for big league roles.  Then you hope you get a 2-4 year window of big time opportunity.  I saw an interview with Brian Cashman earlier this off season.  He indicated that the Yankees would never rebuild, their fan base and ownership would never accept that.  I pretty sure Arte wouldn't accept that either.  Some of our fans would wait it out, others would not.

 

Anyway, what we now have is a partially completed job, and we are broke.  Until we find a way of getting more cash we will have to result to trickery, and some brilliant resourcefulness to get by.  There is nothing else we can do.  Would it have been nice to start this process over this off season, probably, but everyday circumstances change to some degree and you continue to focus your efforts forward.  There is no way to undo earlier decisions.

[Docwaukee]

Doc, actually I don't really know that when Eppler started this off season he was given a firm direction with regard to his limits, financially.  I actually think that when he began his tenure here his mission was to improve the team into a contender.  I think that changed when Arte saw the price tags on the free agents being signed, and what they wanted.  He imposed financial limitations in the face of escalating player salary expenses, and Eppler was probably left holding the bag, so to speak.  Therefore half of the process got curtailed because of emerging facts with regard to luxury tax considerations, and overall cash flow.  Arte's usual methodology is that he heavily supports his new GM's to get them off to a flying start, screw the financial limits.  This time he is apparently not going to do that.

 

What you are suggesting is akin to a rebuild.  That has never been the philosophy here, it's been more like a re-tool on the fly if you will.  And that is more like tearing some things apart for a couple of years, and emerging more quickly than going into the dark ages for 5-10 years or more while young prospects are trained, sorted out, and groomed for big league roles.  Then you hope you get a 2-4 year window of big time opportunity.  I saw an interview with Brian Cashman earlier this off season.  He indicated that the Yankees would never rebuild, their fan base and ownership would never accept that.  I pretty sure Arte wouldn't accept that either.  Some of our fans would wait it out, others would not.

 

Anyway, what we now have is a partially completed job, and we are broke.  Until we find a way of getting more cash we will have to result to trickery, and some brilliant resourcefulness to get by.  There is nothing else we can do.  Would it have been nice to start this process over this off season, probably, but everyday circumstances change to some degree and you continue to focus your efforts forward.  There is no way to undo earlier decisions.

If that is truly the case then this franchise is in deep caca.  Deeper than I thought.  For a billion dollar baseball club to enter the offseason with a plan and then change that plan in the middle is a testament to horrible ownership.  I really hope that is not the case.  

 

Secondly, there is a big difference between being broke and just not wanting to spend the money.  

 

Personally, I think you and I are both correct about the plan.  Do what you can to have the best collection of players you can for 2018.  Don't give away 2016, but don't go over the luxury tax.  

 

No team rebuilds by choice.  Their lack of options forces them to.  The point is to recognize the end sooner than later.  Our fanbase is not going to have a choice five years from now.  Nor is Arte.  If someone is telling him they can put all the pieces back together and keep the team on the field winning, then that person is quite the salesman.  If Eppler pulls that off and can keep Trout around, then he is a God among men.   

 

What I am really suggesting is that we need to shit or get off the pot.  In baseball and pretty much any other sport, mediocrity is self replicating.  

 

All I have ever wanted for this franchise is for it to take advantage of it's opportunities.  I felt like they've missed more often than not as of late.  Some big, some small.  Things like using their ample financial resources to obtain young foreign talent was a miss.  Using resources to bring in Hamilton and then dumping him was a miss.  So was not addressing the pen in 2012.  

 

But the one really good thing they did was to sign Trout to three additional years beyond his original club control.  Which makes him part of this franchise through 2020.   

 

Because of that and a few other things, they have given themselves a chance to be a playoff contender, but in doing those other things they have essentially sacrificed beyond the time when Trout is here.  

 

The current opportunity isn't some long shot where we would need to have a 2011 off season and spend like drunken sailors.  The addition of one good player at one position would make a huge difference.  

Now if they don't believe that one player would help enough or if they believe that we are good enough without that player, then all I can do is disagree.  But don't sit on your yacht and tell me it's all about economics.  

 

There is some truth to the fact that we have become spoiled as Angel fans.  I was at the Donnie Moore game.  I spent most of my teens and all of my 20's while this franchise was considered one of the worst in baseball.  Then in 2002, I got married to my beautiful wife and the Angels won the world series a few months later.  For the next seven years we were a model franchise and it was great.  Then when things seemed like it might come to an end, the sky opened and the heavens gave us Mike Trout.  But for the last few years we have been a day late and a dollar short.  Missing that starting pitcher or that bullpen or that one bat.  I know that we have been fortunate for the last several years.  I am thankful for that.  I know that we have an opportunity to propagate that fortune for five more years.  But what I see after that is 1987-2001.  So before we go there, let's take advantage of what we have.  

 

Am I spoiled?  sure.  But why on God's green earth would I want to stop being spoiled?  I am gonna continue to bitch about mediocrity when it doesn't have to be until can't be.  

[tomsred]

If that is truly the case then this franchise is in deep caca.  Deeper than I thought.  For a billion dollar baseball club to enter the offseason with a plan and then change that plan in the middle is a testament to horrible ownership.  I really hope that is not the case.  

 

Secondly, there is a big difference between being broke and just not wanting to spend the money.  

 

Personally, I think you and I are both correct about the plan.  Do what you can to have the best collection of players you can for 2018.  Don't give away 2016, but don't go over the luxury tax.  

 

No team rebuilds by choice.  Their lack of options forces them to.  The point is to recognize the end sooner than later.  Our fanbase is not going to have a choice five years from now.  Nor is Arte.  If someone is telling him they can put all the pieces back together and keep the team on the field winning, then that person is quite the salesman.  If Eppler pulls that off and can keep Trout around, then he is a God among men.   

 

What I am really suggesting is that we need to shit or get off the pot.  In baseball and pretty much any other sport, mediocrity is self replicating.  

 

All I have ever wanted for this franchise is for it to take advantage of it's opportunities.  I felt like they've missed more often than not as of late.  Some big, some small.  Things like using their ample financial resources to obtain young foreign talent was a miss.  Using resources to bring in Hamilton and then dumping him was a miss.  So was not addressing the pen in 2012.  

 

But the one really good thing they did was to sign Trout to three additional years beyond his original club control.  Which makes him part of this franchise through 2020.   

 

Because of that and a few other things, they have given themselves a chance to be a playoff contender, but in doing those other things they have essentially sacrificed beyond the time when Trout is here.  

 

The current opportunity isn't some long shot where we would need to have a 2011 off season and spend like drunken sailors.  The addition of one good player at one position would make a huge difference.  

Now if they don't believe that one player would help enough or if they believe that we are good enough without that player, then all I can do is disagree.  But don't sit on your yacht and tell me it's all about economics.  

 

There is some truth to the fact that we have become spoiled as Angel fans.  I was at the Donnie Moore game.  I spent most of my teens and all of my 20's while this franchise was considered one of the worst in baseball.  Then in 2002, I got married to my beautiful wife and the Angels won the world series a few months later.  For the next seven years we were a model franchise and it was great.  Then when things seemed like it might come to an end, the sky opened and the heavens gave us Mike Trout.  But for the last few years we have been a day late and a dollar short.  Missing that starting pitcher or that bullpen or that one bat.  I know that we have been fortunate for the last several years.  I am thankful for that.  I know that we have an opportunity to propagate that fortune for five more years.  But what I see after that is 1987-2001.  So before we go there, let's take advantage of what we have.  

 

Am I spoiled?  sure.  But why on God's green earth would I want to stop being spoiled?  I am gonna continue to bitch about mediocrity when it doesn't have to be until can't be.  

 

"Personally, I think you and I are both correct about the plan.  Do what you can to have the best collection of players you can for 2018.  Don't give away 2016, but don't go over the luxury tax."

 

Yep, that's a pretty good statement of where we are at this moment.  Exactly when we arrived at that plan is anyone's guess.  I don't know for sure if they had something different in mind when they started the off season, and I don't know if they will change their mind again.  We have two and a half months until things start for real, and enough talent sitting on the side or available through trades that hope springs eternal.  I'm not much of a critic as regard to Eppler's performance, Arte controls all the marbles, he can push the organization forward or retard it as he sees fit.  This one is up to him.  Eppler and his organization are just trying to squeeze blood from a turnip at this point.

[AngelsFanSince86]

I don't have time to read the last 4 or 5 responses, but I've read most of this thread and one thing that bugs me is a couple people have acted like the value of Simmons is only the difference between he and Aybar, but Newcombs value is standalone. Its either one way or the other. Pitching is valuable, but the Angels have a lot of pitching.  Not saying they have Mets level depth, but they have the depth to make them at the very least an average staff for years to come.  SS is one position it is hard to come by talent.  Rarely does a SS of Simmons caliber hit FA below 30 because teams will lock them up and even more rarely does one come up for trade.  This was a move that looked toward the future.  I mean you guys do realize Simmons will be with this team 2018 and beyond right??  

 

I keep hearing, "this was a shortsighted move thinking about now by trading away the future for 2018 and beyond".  So who is going to be our SS for 2018 or beyond if not Simmons?  Could we draft one?  Sure.  We could also draft another pitcher though.  The thing is pitchers are significantly easier to come by via trade or FA than a solid SS is.  If Simmons averages 3.0 dWAR over the next 5 years (He's averaged a little over 4.2 in his 3 full seasons so thats accounting for possible decline), he will already be in the top 10 all time for dWAR.  

 

According to fangraphs, if you take Ozzie Smith and Simmons age 23-25 seasons (ignoring Simmons age 22 season because he only played 49 games and Smith played his first season which was a full season at age 23), Smith had a 64.9 defensive value (takes DRS and UZR into account) and Simmons was worth 77.5.  Not saying he will be able to continue the pace that Smith held up, but he's been better and has also been much better with the bat.  We have a special player as our SS for years to come.  If he comes around with the bat while keeping up the defense we are talking hall of fame caliber player.

[Docwaukee]

"Personally, I think you and I are both correct about the plan.  Do what you can to have the best collection of players you can for 2018.  Don't give away 2016, but don't go over the luxury tax."

 

Yep, that's a pretty good statement of where we are at this moment.  Exactly when we arrived at that plan is anyone's guess.  I don't know for sure if they had something different in mind when they started the off season, and I don't know if they will change their mind again.  We have two and a half months until things start for real, and enough talent sitting on the side or available through trades that hope springs eternal.  I'm not much of a critic as regard to Eppler's performance, Arte controls all the marbles, he can push the organization forward or retard it as he sees fit.  This one is up to him.  Eppler and his organization are just trying to squeeze blood from a turnip at this point.

pretty much.  

 

The remainder of this off season and the season in general is going to be very interesting.  

 

It's essentially the first time since Arte has owned the team that we could enter the season with an obvious position of need left virtually unresolved.  Certainly, previous 'fixes' haven't exactly been perfect, but needs were addressed regardless of whether we agreed.  And truly, money is obviously a concern in that we will end up with the highest payroll in club history.  

 

Regardless, I just don't see us entering the season without a legitimate everyday player for LF.  

 

Arte is always going to be the problem and the solution.  

 

It's gonna be real interesting as to how we proceed and very telling as to Arte's mentality toward this team.  Does he cater to his inner fan and blow past the tax or does he stick to his line and stand pat.  Will the fans punish him for the latter?  Or will 3 million of them show up regardless?  We'll see if they still show up when the team is 4 games out of the 2nd wild card at the all star break hovering around .500.  If they buy it and still come out, then he'll have achieved his goal I guess.  How could anyone fault him for that?

 

I guess I just want him to be a fan more than a businessman.  I can't blame him if not, but I kinda thought he was.  

[Docwaukee]

I don't have time to read the last 4 or 5 responses, but I've read most of this thread and one thing that bugs me is a couple people have acted like the value of Simmons is only the difference between he and Aybar, but Newcombs value is standalone. Its either one way or the other. Pitching is valuable, but the Angels have a lot of pitching.  Not saying they have Mets level depth, but they have the depth to make them at the very least an average staff for years to come.  SS is one position it is hard to come by talent.  Rarely does a SS of Simmons caliber hit FA below 30 because teams will lock them up and even more rarely does one come up for trade.  This was a move that looked toward the future.  I mean you guys do realize Simmons will be with this team 2018 and beyond right??  

 

I keep hearing, "this was a shortsighted move thinking about now by trading away the future for 2018 and beyond".  So who is going to be our SS for 2018 or beyond if not Simmons?  Could we draft one?  Sure.  We could also draft another pitcher though.  The thing is pitchers are significantly easier to come by via trade or FA than a solid SS is.  If Simmons averages 3.0 dWAR over the next 5 years (He's averaged a little over 4.2 in his 3 full seasons so thats accounting for possible decline), he will already be in the top 10 all time for dWAR.  

 

According to fangraphs, if you take Ozzie Smith and Simmons age 23-25 seasons (ignoring Simmons age 22 season because he only played 49 games and Smith played his first season which was a full season at age 23), Smith had a 64.9 defensive value (takes DRS and UZR into account) and Simmons was worth 77.5.  Not saying he will be able to continue the pace that Smith held up, but he's been better and has also been much better with the bat.  We have a special player as our SS for years to come.  If he comes around with the bat while keeping up the defense we are talking hall of fame caliber player.

the gist of what you didn't read is that if simmons was a move for now and the future, how do you leave the rest of the team incomplete.  I've got no problem with simmons.  He's a really nice player. We used our currency to patch a hole that was just starting to crack but was going to be a huge problem a year from now.  The patch job was professional and looks great but it cost our entire patch budget.  So we were forced to patch the current huge hole that's a problem now with chewing gum and a wet nap.  

[jimbo]

Projected market increase analysis is done years in advance I would assume so I don't believe FA demands are a surprise to Arte at all. Im still holding on to the belief that the Angels are lying in wait to make their move.

[Angel Oracle]

Re-signing David Murphy with nothing given up >

trading asset(s) for Charlie Blackmon.

[Angel Oracle]

Day 31 of Cespedes/Upton held hostage.

ST is just around 5 weeks off.