Cheap versus scared... not sure which is worse

[QuinlansMinion]

Considering none of the major outfielders have signed yet I think there might be some strategy to Arte's comments.  He said at the time he would "probably" be out of the bidding war for any of the top free agents.  If the price comes down a little bit, maybe he changes his mind.  I think Cespedes will go back to New York.  Between Upton and Gordon, if we could get one on a 3 year deal, it might be realistic.  

[Redondo]

  Between Upton and Gordon, if we could get one on a 3 year deal, it might be realistic.  

 

3 year deal would be the way to go if we could get them to sign a deal like that. It's the long term commitments like 7-10 years that I don't like.

[Troll Daddy]

Pujols/Hamilton/Weaver/Wilson should of been given opt-out clauses and we wouldn't be in this mess.

Head scratcher

[Troll Daddy]

3 year deal would be the way to go if we could get them to sign a deal like that. It's the long term commitments like 7-10 years that I don't like.

Just give them a 3 yr opt out ... problem solved

[tdawg87]

Sorry, Tdawg, it's not a contrarian stance just to play devils advocate like you think. I really believe the Angels are at the crossroads where the foolish contracts to non superstars has run it's course. They simply crunched the numbers on some of these guys and said it is not worth the money, years and another first round draft pick pissed away on a guy that is just better. Not amazingly better but just better.

 

That's not the $20-25 million a year definition of smart move, a guy that could help the team. They reached the cliffs edge and didn't like the view. I applaud them for not jumping off one more time. And next off season, the don't have to jump off that cliff for the best guy in the free agent pool since he is not going to be that impact player either.

 

I get you've all invested a lot of time picking the best solution to left field but what the Angels seem to have come to the conclusion is playing Global Thermal Nuclear Warfare is not the winning strategy. Putting money in front of e very problem is not the solution. They've been down that road and decided it was time to find another way. You know, like all of the smart GMs have been doing to try and build a contender without killing their future.

 

As I've said in other threads, this plan could change in a heartbeat should the numbers all move towards the Angels favor instead of just enriching an agent. They could just pick up one of the bi names as the weeks work their ways to Spring Training. For all the hand wringing you guys are doing and some being pathetic assholes, only one of the big name outfielders has ink a contract. It appears the Angels are doing no less or more than other ball clubs in moving towards an offer. Most have what you've seen is trades and a few average guys getting an average payday.

 

Arte is not cheap and he is not stupid but he has made some disastrous decisions on player personnel, primarily who he had put in the GM role which led to unfortunate acquisitions that weren't based on best scenario outcomes. New group, new plan, you may not like or appreciate it because it isn't the first game of the season, the roster isn't locked in and no one has seen all of these new guys play together.

 

Give it a chance.

 

It isn't that continuing to spend money on lucrative contracts is the best idea. It's just that it's become the only viable solution to improving the team. Unless they want to rebuild (which would be a disaster with Mike Trout under control), then I'm going to assume they want to field the best possible team every single year, and look to compete every single year.

 

We have a horrid, barren farm system, as well as an organization that has shown absolutely no interest in international scouting, not to mention absolutely dreadful scouting in the states. So we have no one waiting to take over spots on the big league roster, nor do we have anyone of any value in a trade. All the players we have with trade value probably have more value to the Angels than whatever they would be trading for. So we're basically stuck in this situation until Arte decides to spend again. That is literally the only way this team can significantly improve at this juncture.

 

Some might call it "righting the ship" by choosing to stay away from the big contacts for a while, but forgive me for being a little concerned about this organization's ability to build a winner through scouting and making smart, smaller moves. How soon we forget how great things were after Vlad was signed to the largest contract in Angels history at the time. Same thing with Torii not long after. Arte has had just as much luck with the big signings as he has had poor luck. While the contracts for the poor luck signings were much larger, Arte was also making a lot more money.

 

The fact is, the payroll is going to be ridiculously high regardless. If Arte's figure is correct (and why wouldn't it be?), he's paying 185 million for team that for all intents and purposes, looks like a possible 2nd WC contender IF everything goes well. It's not looking any better in 2017 either. Pretty good start to Trout's 5 remaining years.

 

And it's not just about having a better player at the position (I will respectfully disagree with you and say that any of the options left are absolutely "amazingly" better than the garbage the Angels threw out in left field last year), it's about filling a hole long term. Next year they're going to have this same exact hole in left field. What if the platoon option was a complete and utter failure? Sure, it didn't cost much, but do you go for round two of "Lets throw shit at the wall and pray that it sticks"? In 2018, unless someone in the farm breaks out, they have that exact same hole yet again. Will Arte go bonkers to get Harper? Not with his current attitude. Arte's, I mean.

 

We have 5 guaranteed years left of the best player in the game. Five. Are we going to spend it pinching pennies and filling holes with platoons? All because Arte got burned by one guy he could have just as easily chosen to keep?

 

To a point, you can't simply keep throwing money at every position on the field. Some of those guys have to be homegrown, or traded for. But the hole in LF is Arte's doing. He created it. He chose to pay for it. And is now choosing to punish the organization because of it. This isn't about him "learning his lesson". This is like a child throwing away a $60 video game because it wasn't as good as he thought it would be, didn't work properly, and also snorted coke off of hooker beav. Now his friends are coming over for a party and they want to play some video games. So instead of going and buying a new one, he goes to the thrift store and picks out a game of Parcheesi with 2 of the green pieces missing. He tells his friends he is "trying his best" and that this should be just as fun as a new video game. His friends are like "oh...ok" and they play Parcheesi having to use a couple jelly beans in place of the two missing pieces. They come so close to having fun, but ultimately they got bored and left. "If only we had a video game to play" they all said as they left the party, disappointed.

 

And then that little shit of a child tries to convince his friends that he will spend money for "the right video game", and his friends just kind of shrug it off and go masturbate. He feels good about telling them this, because they need to understand that it's about the economics. Some of these games you spend $50-$60 dollars on and it's just so much risk. What if they suck? What if they break? What if they snort Gandalf the White off a prostitute's elbow?

[Ohtaniland]

Just give them a 3 yr opt out ... problem solved

It would have to be a team opt out option. The sucking players never opt out.

[19HALO71]

Sorry, Tdawg, it's not a contrarian stance just to play devils advocate like you think. I really believe the Angels are at the crossroads where the foolish contracts to non superstars has run it's course. They simply crunched the numbers on some of these guys and said it is not worth the money, years and another first round draft pick pissed away on a guy that is just better. Not amazingly better but just better.

 

That's not the $20-25 million a year definition of smart move, a guy that could help the team. They reached the cliffs edge and didn't like the view. I applaud them for not jumping off one more time. And next off season, the don't have to jump off that cliff for the best guy in the free agent pool since he is not going to be that impact player either.

 

I get you've all invested a lot of time picking the best solution to left field but what the Angels seem to have come to the conclusion is playing Global Thermal Nuclear Warfare is not the winning strategy. Putting money in front of e very problem is not the solution. They've been down that road and decided it was time to find another way. You know, like all of the smart GMs have been doing to try and build a contender without killing their future.

 

As I've said in other threads, this plan could change in a heartbeat should the numbers all move towards the Angels favor instead of just enriching an agent. They could just pick up one of the bi names as the weeks work their ways to Spring Training. For all the hand wringing you guys are doing and some being pathetic assholes, only one of the big name outfielders has ink a contract. It appears the Angels are doing no less or more than other ball clubs in moving towards an offer. Most have what you've seen is trades and a few average guys getting an average payday.

 

Arte is not cheap and he is not stupid but he has made some disastrous decisions on player personnel, primarily who he had put in the GM role which led to unfortunate acquisitions that weren't based on best scenario outcomes. New group, new plan, you may not like or appreciate it because it isn't the first game of the season, the roster isn't locked in and no one has seen all of these new guys play together.

 

Give it a chance.

 

^^^This^^^

 

Very well done.

 

Go Halos!!!

[Stradling]

Pujols/Hamilton/Weaver/Wilson should of been given opt-out clauses and we wouldn't be in this mess.

Head scratcher

I am going to create an acronym for some of your posts, like this one, where you are obviously TTH (Trying Too Hard).

[Lou]

If we assume that Arte isnt just being on the cheap, and is legitimately scared of getting burned again... this might be worse than actually being cheap.

Cheap and not wanting to bust the luxury tax is one thing, i can understand that even though as a fan I dont like it considering the causes... but i can almost understand it.

If the issues is scared of big contracts though, as some have suggested, this might be worse!. No impact player is ever going to get signed without risk in terms of dollars and/or years. So are we to assume then that we are going to be out of those discussions for the foreseeable future?

Waiting out the bad deals is one thing... being gunshy about contracts is another... and puts us in a far worse place.

Weve literally gone form large market player back in time to the Disney years in less than one season, all basically due to the Hamil-douche debacle. I never thought i would miss those old times but right now as fans being set up with expectations and then knocked down is far worse than having unrealistic hope.

So you're taking the suggestion from some here that we are gunshy as fact?

I would definitely reconsider your thought process on this matter if I were you

Edited December 19, 2015 by Lou

[Lou]

Just give them a 3 yr opt out ... problem solved

None of those players would have opted out

[Lou]

It isnt greedy to expect the owner to keep his word.  HE set this expectation, not us.

Little easy to dismiss us as the problem here.

What exactly did he promise you?

[tomsred]

It would have to be a team opt out option. The sucking players never opt out.

 

Exactly right, just think if we had a team opt out on Hamilton, Pujols, and Wilson; after 3 years for Hamilton and Wilson, and 5 year on Pujols.  Until we get past the arcane principle of paying very large contracts based on past performance things won't really change.  Think about it, we set up Trout's contract more on what we expect him to do in the future, more of that please.  We just have to survive until Hamilton, Wilson, and Pujols are off the books.  Wilson (this year), and Pujols can help us survive by giving us all they have left, the sad case is Hamilton as he's a zero contributor.

Edited December 20, 2015 by tomsred

[seenoevil]

Eppler stinks thread/

[ettin]

And what word is he going back on?

I agree with you IP that he did not explicitly promise we would sign any top free agent this offseason.

However he did say that he'd go over the Luxury Tax for the right player yet we're finding out now that we didn't even submit a bid (low, medium or high) for what many here consider the "right" player (specifically talking about Heyward here too).

Raising the fans expectations was foolish of him. Not even submitting a bid really enforces that foolishness. Finally looking at the state of his team and roster and getting buyer's remorse before even buying or bidding on the product is shortsighted and speaks to his state of mind on team expenditures.

The Hamilton signing, subsequent trade, and lack of clear baseball leadership has wrecked our team. Will we compete next season? Sure of course but the team, in its current state, is a borderline contender in the AL West and, if the right pieces were signed from free agency, could have been demonstrably better in my opinion.

I really think the opt out clauses also contributed to scaring Moreno off. Once Casey Close mentioned "hey we want him to be able to leave after two or three years" that it might have not sat well with the front office from a contractual point of view (which is silly but I can imagine Moreno wanted a 10-year Pujols commitment rather than a rental).

If we didn't have Mike Trout I'd be "more" okay with these decisions. But the fact that we have such a superb difference maker on our team makes our playoff chances so much better that why wouldn't you try to maximize your chances to win now?

I have to imagine that by adding an additional impact player like Heyward or Upton would help the Angels climb the win curve a small but significant manner.

[ettin]

One thing I seriously considered this offseason was the fact the Angels might consider extending Garrett Richards and Kole Calhoun.

Since we apparently can't buy a 26 or 28 year old in free agency perhaps we can at least spend the 5/$95MM or the 5/$65MM to extend Richards and Calhoun respectively (and those are my guesses at extensions)?

I think both would be very open to those agreements. Garrett because he has already experienced a freak injury and is good friends with Trout and Calhoun because I think he'd be really happy to get a big payday and still be able to hit the open market in his age 32-33 season.

Edited December 20, 2015 by ettin

[Troll Daddy]

It would have to be a team opt out option. The sucking players never opt out.

Exactly

[Troll Daddy]

I am going to create an acronym for some of your posts, like this one, where you are obviously TTH (Trying Too Hard).

It's called sarcasm ... lighten up kid

[Ohtaniland]

Sorry, Tdawg, it's not a contrarian stance just to play devils advocate like you think. I really believe the Angels are at the crossroads where the foolish contracts to non superstars has run it's course. They simply crunched the numbers on some of these guys and said it is not worth the money, years and another first round draft pick pissed away on a guy that is just better. Not amazingly better but just better.

That's not the $20-25 million a year definition of smart move, a guy that could help the team. They reached the cliffs edge and didn't like the view. I applaud them for not jumping off one more time. And next off season, the don't have to jump off that cliff for the best guy in the free agent pool since he is not going to be that impact player either.

I get you've all invested a lot of time picking the best solution to left field but what the Angels seem to have come to the conclusion is playing Global Thermal Nuclear Warfare is not the winning strategy. Putting money in front of e very problem is not the solution. They've been down that road and decided it was time to find another way. You know, like all of the smart GMs have been doing to try and build a contender without killing their future.

As I've said in other threads, this plan could change in a heartbeat should the numbers all move towards the Angels favor instead of just enriching an agent. They could just pick up one of the bi names as the weeks work their ways to Spring Training. For all the hand wringing you guys are doing and some being pathetic assholes, only one of the big name outfielders has ink a contract. It appears the Angels are doing no less or more than other ball clubs in moving towards an offer. Most have what you've seen is trades and a few average guys getting an average payday.

Arte is not cheap and he is not stupid but he has made some disastrous decisions on player personnel, primarily who he had put in the GM role which led to unfortunate acquisitions that weren't based on best scenario outcomes. New group, new plan, you may not like or appreciate it because it isn't the first game of the season, the roster isn't locked in and no one has seen all of these new guys play together.

Give it a chance.

Notti, good stuff.

[Docwaukee]

I don't think Arte is scared or cheap.  I think he's just a lot less emotional about the team than we are and that we thought he was.  

 

His accountants have a spreadsheet.  He looks at the top.  He looks at the bottom.  He asks a bunch of questions about different things, but at the end of the day, his biggest concern is what that bottom numbers shows.  He's got every right to do it how he's done it.  

 

This scenario is pretty straightforward.  Buy more talent and win more games.  He has no debt.  His franchise is worth almost 7 times what he paid for it.  He's worth almost 2 billion dollars.  He has a new TV contract worth 150mil per season.  He isn't crying poverty.  He's just citing economics.  Economics that change the bottom line and take money out of his pocket in such a way that he would have to get creative financially on his balance sheets.  

 

He's gone as far as he is willing to go.  

 

We misjudged him.  Or at least I did.  I thought he wanted to win a championship at all costs.  He doesn't.  

 

Personally, my big issue isn't that he won't spend the money.  It's that he won't spend the money to make up for the bad decisions he's made.  But we have to live with that.  The thing I have the most difficult time with overall is that he's set the team up such that the only way to make it good is to pay money to do so.  Since we now know he's not willing to go beyond a certain point financially, I'd rather back payroll down even further and spend his resources on the farm system and player development. 

[Ohtaniland]

I don't think Arte is scared or cheap. I think he's just a lot less emotional about the team than we are and that we thought he was.

His accountants have a spreadsheet. He looks at the top. He looks at the bottom. He asks a bunch of questions about different things, but at the end of the day, his biggest concern is what that bottom numbers shows. He's got every right to do it how he's done it.

This scenario is pretty straightforward. Buy more talent and win more games. He has no debt. His franchise is worth almost 7 times what he paid for it. He's worth almost 2 billion dollars. He has a new TV contract worth 150mil per season. He isn't crying poverty. He's just citing economics. Economics that change the bottom line and take money out of his pocket in such a way that he would have to get creative financially on his balance sheets.

He's gone as far as he is willing to go.

We misjudged him. Or at least I did. I thought he wanted to win a championship at all costs. He doesn't.

Personally, my big issue isn't that he won't spend the money. It's that he won't spend the money to make up for the bad decisions he's made. But we have to live with that. The thing I have the most difficult time with overall is that he's set the team up such that the only way to make it good is to pay money to do so. Since we now know he's not willing to go beyond a certain point financially, I'd rather back payroll down even further and spend his resources on the farm system and player development.

Doc, I understand what you're saying but it's kinda unfair to ask Arte to spend more to make up for his mistakes. The mistakes are still on the current payroll so adding another millionaire to a roster filled with millionaire's that continually fail to win won't help. Remember that we the fans were there for all of the press conferences thanking Arte and Jerry. Now we are all here telling him that he made horrible mistakes and now he has to fix it ASAP or he doesn't care. That's not really fair.

[Docwaukee]

Doc, I understand what you're saying but it's kinda unfair to ask Arte to spend more to make up for his mistakes. The mistakes are still on the current payroll so adding another millionaire to a roster filled with millionaire's that continually fail to win won't help. Remember that we the fans were there for all of the press conferences thanking Arte and Jerry. Now we are all here telling him that he made horrible mistakes and now he has to fix it ASAP or he doesn't care. That's not really fair.

It's not about fair or unfair.  He's not gonna listen to us anyway.  Every team's fans want their owner to spend money and make a good baseball team.  

 

He either wants to win or he doesn't and the question becomes how far is he willing to go with that.  Now we have our answer.  

[Ohtaniland]

It's not about fair or unfair. He's not gonna listen to us anyway. Every team's fans want their owner to spend money and make a good baseball team.

He either wants to win or he doesn't and the question becomes how far is he willing to go with that. Now we have our answer.

I think that Arte asked Eppler; "is there that one special player available right now that can get me a championship?" "A player that we should go all in on that puts us over the luxury tax and leaves no more spending flexibility for 2016 regardless of injuries?" Eppler probably said no, there is no one that good available.

[floplag]

Doc, I understand what you're saying but it's kinda unfair to ask Arte to spend more to make up for his mistakes. The mistakes are still on the current payroll so adding another millionaire to a roster filled with millionaire's that continually fail to win won't help. Remember that we the fans were there for all of the press conferences thanking Arte and Jerry. Now we are all here telling him that he made horrible mistakes and now he has to fix it ASAP or he doesn't care. That's not really fair.

 

It is also unfair to ask us as fans to support at the same level then is it not?  

As a fan, im not concerned with his money, he has plenty, lets not forget he bought the club with cash as i recall.  Asking him to go 1 year over the threshold to make up for said mistakes, is not as a fan an unrealistic expectation.

Never has any team that i can recall had such an obvious need as we do for LF this season, that that need was gone unfilled when there were so many options available. 

The org has made a choice, not to spend, not to pay the tax, and most importantly not to field what is likely to be a competitive product in 2016.  That is hard to stomach.

[Ohtaniland]

It is also unfair to ask us as fans to support at the same level then is it not?

As a fan, im not concerned with his money, he has plenty, lets not forget he bought the club with cash as i recall. Asking him to go 1 year over the threshold to make up for said mistakes, is not as a fan an unrealistic expectation.

Never has any team that i can recall had such an obvious need as we do for LF this season, that that need was gone unfilled when there were so many options available.

The org has made a choice, not to spend, not to pay the tax, and most importantly not to field what is likely to be a competitive product in 2016. That is hard to stomach.

But we have to stop fooling ourselves into believing that we are only one player away from being a championship level team. The 2015 KC Royals had five players in their starting lineup with .800+ ops numbers. We had one, Mike Trout.

[floplag]

But we have to stop fooling ourselves into believing that we are only one player away from being a championship level team. The 2015 KC Royals had five players in their starting lineup with .800+ ops numbers. We had one, Mike Trout.

 

I never said that at all.   We have other issues that it very true.

But here is what is also true... we missed the post season last year by one game... one.  Largely if not solely because we didn't get a legit LF at the deadline.  We were three games out from winning the division.  Even with all our issues we were still very much in the hunt and had a chance. IF we had gotten Cespedes for example, we very well may have won the division and certainly would have at last made the post season.

The post season is a crap shoot, usually won by whoever is playing the best, not who is actually the best... but you have to get there... we chose not to.  We made a conscious choice to not do that.  There is virtually no other way you can state that fact.  We chose not to make a move when we desperately needed to to compete.  Now we have chosen again to not make a move again for virtually no reason other than not wanting to spend.

 

Do we have many issues, yes, we do... but we also are not that far out from being there.    We won 85 last year, it isnt like we were the dregs of the league for christs sake.  I could understand this logic if we were 20 out, not 1.... not 1.  Are we one player away from a guaranteed title.. no, noone is, but we darned sure are 1 good player away from the playoffs based on last season. 

 

I simply cannot abide or support a decision to phone in the season before its even begun, and that is what they are doing.  This is very different than a small market mentality and having hope knowing you arent likely a little short like we were int he old days... this is choosing to be where we are.   They are accepting third place or worse when they do not have to based solely on not "wanting" to spend.   We are not a poor franchise, what we need is out there... we are choosing to be less than we should be in a time when we have the best player on the planet on our roster.  I will choose to spend less on games as a result.

Edited December 20, 2015 by floplag