Cheap versus scared... not sure which is worse

[Troll Daddy]

There's a lot of needless drama going on here at AW.com ... we all know the off season is far from over. I'll take the optimistic approach for now.

[Angel Oracle]

How much is even Parra asking for?

He would be a good midrange LF addition.

[floplag]

There's a lot of needless drama going on here at AW.com ... we all know the off season is far from over. I'll take the optimistic approach for now.

 

The drama isnt about the off season, it goes back to last season mainly starting at the break.   I saw this coming, i said it then, i was told i was wrong then, im being told im wrong now.... actions speak my friend

we are sitting on our hands wasting great individual season.. including the best we are likely to get from the Pujols contract everyone cries about.

We have no direction, at least none they are willing to talk about... my optimism is all but gone until i see them actually do something that brings this org into focus

[Blarg]

How much is even Parra asking for?

He would be a good midrange LF addition.

 

Why would you propose going over the cap for a good, midrange player? It's like paying twice for an average hamburger. Arte likes steak and is willing to pay for really good steak. So far you butchers want him to buy hamburger at the price of steak.

[Troll Daddy]

The drama isnt about the off season, it goes back to last season mainly starting at the break. I saw this coming, i said it then, i was told i was wrong then, im being told im wrong now.... actions speak my friend

we are sitting on our hands wasting great individual season.. including the best we are likely to get from the Pujols contract everyone cries about.

We have no direction, at least none they are willing to talk about... my optimism is all but gone until i see them actually do something that brings this org into focus

I have to agree about last season ... that's on Dipoto for not getting a better LF bat at the trade line.

Sorry, I'm not going to put the blame on Arte.

[Troll Daddy]

Why would you propose going over the cap for a good, midrange player? It's like paying twice for an average hamburger. Arte likes steak and is willing to pay for really good steak. So far you butchers want him to buy hamburger at the price of steak.

I get your drift ... although, there is more than one need. I believe he may go over the cap for a few burgers.

[floplag]

I have to agree about last season ... that's on Dipoto for not getting a better LF bat at the trade line.

Sorry, I'm not going to put the blame on Arte.

 

Whoever its "on" really isnt the issue... bottom line the org did nothing, separating the blame doesn't remove them all from it.  I cannot believe that Arte wasn't involved in some way with the decisions that were made even at the deadlines based on his level of overall involvement. 

You blame Dipoto when its very possible, perhaps even probable, that his hands were tied.   We dont know what that was or wasnt, either way the club did nothing. 

[floplag]

Why would you propose going over the cap for a good, midrange player? It's like paying twice for an average hamburger. Arte likes steak and is willing to pay for really good steak. So far you butchers want him to buy hamburger at the price of steak.

 

No thats not the case at all... i dont want him to buy hamburger, i want to know why he didnt even look at the menu. By all accounts we didnt have any real discussions with anyone.  Why?  

There is only one answer, those who would help would put us over the line and the org wont cross that line.  There is no other reason to back off of all these players and once again go dumpster diving for a semi clean peanut. 

Edited December 20, 2015 by floplag

[AngelsLakersFan]

I don't think Arte is scared or cheap.  I think he's just a lot less emotional about the team than we are and that we thought he was.  

 

His accountants have a spreadsheet.  He looks at the top.  He looks at the bottom.  He asks a bunch of questions about different things, but at the end of the day, his biggest concern is what that bottom numbers shows.  He's got every right to do it how he's done it.  

 

This scenario is pretty straightforward.  Buy more talent and win more games.  He has no debt.  His franchise is worth almost 7 times what he paid for it.  He's worth almost 2 billion dollars.  He has a new TV contract worth 150mil per season.  He isn't crying poverty.  He's just citing economics.  Economics that change the bottom line and take money out of his pocket in such a way that he would have to get creative financially on his balance sheets.  

 

He's gone as far as he is willing to go.  

 

We misjudged him.  Or at least I did.  I thought he wanted to win a championship at all costs.  He doesn't.  

 

Personally, my big issue isn't that he won't spend the money.  It's that he won't spend the money to make up for the bad decisions he's made.  But we have to live with that.  The thing I have the most difficult time with overall is that he's set the team up such that the only way to make it good is to pay money to do so.  Since we now know he's not willing to go beyond a certain point financially, I'd rather back payroll down even further and spend his resources on the farm system and player development. 

 

Considering the near 0 spending internationally, and the minuscule spending in the draft, and the super duper slashed player development budget, I wonder if we could get an idea of Moreno's net expenditures on 'the team' in comparison to other franchises.

 

We know he is 6th in payroll (I think), but you gotta figure he is spending considerably less than most other teams in just about ever other facet of the game. I'm guessing total spending moves him down closer to 10th.

[eligrba]

I know exactly how Mike Trout feels because my employer also failed to heavily invest in the business during my peak years. 

 

Such a waste.

[Mark68]

I think this all boils down to one player: Josh Hamilton. Because Arte feels he got burned by Hamilton (and who wouldn't feel like they got cheated by signing a known drug addict and expecting no relapses), took it personally, so had him shipped off to our division rival while paying 90% of his salary, thus creating the very hole in LF that was inadequately filled last season and apparently will be again this year.

 

Sure, there's some buyers' remorse for the Pujols and Wilson signings, but Hamilton is what really (apparently) soured him on going the free agency route. It was an ill-advised signing to begin with, and shipping him off to Arlington certainly did not solve anything.

 

But here's the problem: Arte doesn't spend anything for international scouting, nor are there adequate resources budgeted for player development. So he's painted himself into a corner. To field a winning team during Trout's remaining tenure here, he's going to HAVE to spend. He left himself no other option.

 

Someone mentioned that the Royals had five players with an OPS of .800 or better. What hasn't been mentioned is that four of them were home-grown (Hosmer, Gordon, Moustakas, and Cain). The other was Kendrys Morales. Yes, three of those four were drafted in the first round, Cain was acquired from the Brewers (along with Alcides Escobar) in the Greinke trade and had been a round 17 pick.

 

My point is, a team that does not scout internationally nor develop its own players (and therefore does not have excess players to trade) has no choice but to pay for players on the open market. This is why I was a proponent of trying to sign Heyward, as he is still coming into his prime and Arte would actually (for once) be paying for his best years.

 

You can assume Heyward would have signed with the Cubs anyway, and he very well may have, but I guess we'll never know since the Angels never offered him a contract.

[Blarg]

I know exactly how Mike Trout feels because my employer also failed to heavily invest in the business during my peak years.

Such a waste.

Your employer has a business that is worth over 6 times it's purchase price from 2013 and has hit a salary cap as well?

[Blarg]

Mark, I think it started well before Hamilton. From Appier released and Guillen kicked off the team before the playoffs, Matthews Jr lying about his PED usage, the catastrophe that was Wells, Hamilton was more of a last straw (pun intended) of a long line of financial wastes of resources. Dog pile on that Boras jerking him around and it is no wonder he is taking a step back from the foolish game of trying to buy a better player.

Edited December 21, 2015 by notti

[Mark68]

That's overlooking the fact that there have been several successful (or relatively successful) free agent acquisitions (Hunter, Vlad, Abreu).

[floplag]

Mark, I think it started well before Hamilton. From Appier released and Guillen kicked off the team before the playoffs, Matthews Jr lying about his PED usage, the catastrophe that was Wells, Hamilton was more of a last straw (pun intended) of a long line of financial wastes of resources. Dog pile on that Boras jerking him around and it is no wonder he is taking a step back from the foolish game of trying to buy a better player.

 

Its easy to list the failures while omitting some of the successes.   We have had our share.  But the reality is that is the path the org chose by its prior action in trading away virtually the entire farm.

Now you make a good point that has merit, however, what  doesnt hold water is changing the plan mid stream, which is what appears may have happened based on the Simmons deal then hitting the breaks on the post season and going to Walmart over Macys.

The simple fact is that we have no choice if we want to compete.  By not taking action we are effectively saying we are taking a step back as an org.  We finished third, and are likely to do not better or even worse in 2016

I guess for me i dont want sunshine blown up my arse.  if we are going to rebuild and fix it then do that, dont tell us were not going to do it and just ... do it.  i mean i dont know what else to say to that.  Dumpster diving isnt going to make us competitive so whats the point?  We as fans are not stupid, dont treat us like we are. 

Fish or cut bait as the saying goes... make the moves to fix the club or start trading everyone of value to rebuild.  

Maybe thats the smart move for now... even IF we got Heyward or get Gordon/Cespedes etc... , are we better than Hou?  Tex?  maybe even Sea?   or KC?   Short of going out and Getting Davis and Cespedes for example, which will never happen, are we really a contender either way with our current roster?  I can help but feel that maybe our window has just gotten slammed shut by not taking action last mid season.  

Either way being strung along by the front office isnt something im prepared to support. 

Edited December 21, 2015 by floplag

[AngelsFanSince86]

The drama isnt about the off season, it goes back to last season mainly starting at the break.   I saw this coming, i said it then, i was told i was wrong then, im being told im wrong now.... actions speak my friend

we are sitting on our hands wasting great individual season.. including the best we are likely to get from the Pujols contract everyone cries about.

We have no direction, at least none they are willing to talk about... my optimism is all but gone until i see them actually do something that brings this org into focus

 

For me, I was ok with them not doing anything midseason last year.  I felt it was a bad decision to trade for a rental.  If you don't win the WS you screw the team for years.  I thought it would be best to wait until this big FA class and then get a guy so that you can make a run for several years in a row thereby increasing your chances of winning a WS by increasing the amount of playoffs they play in.  

 

Had I known they were going to sit on their hands this offseason I would have been in the same mentality as you.  I feel they should have made a trade at the deadline last year if they knew they wouldn't spend in the offseason.  If they didn't know whether or not they would spend they are totally inept as an organization.  

[tdawg87]

That's overlooking the fact that there have been several successful (or relatively successful) free agent acquisitions (Hunter, Vlad, Abreu).

 

Kelvim Escobar, Scott Downs, Joe Smith (so far), the Weaver extension (for the most part). Even Wilson hasn't been a bad signing.

 

The biggest money acquisitions haven't really worked out the way Arte or anyone else had hoped but that's not our fault. Arte signed Pujols despite the Angels already having a competent 1st baseman. He also signed Hamilton despite the Angels needing pitching more than offense. He took on Wells because he panicked when the Angels struck out on Crawford. Now, when the Angels have a legitimate need for a big FA signing, he gets cold feet because of his own past mistakes.