Gun Control

[RuledByNone]

The last point about prohibition is wrong.  Movies and books love to tell stories of the mob and alcohol flowing everywhere but in reality outside of illegal drinking, crime was down and the number of the people drinking alcohol was way down.

 

 

 

Consumption had been falling for years before prohibition. It initially fell with 18a then went right back up. I remember my grandfather saying that you could buy it by the pail. It was available to anyone that wanted it.

 

 

 

[Tank]

There are a ton of different medications out there.  Some are anti-depressants, some are anit-anxiety, what would this ban be?

 

i'm speaking in general terms. i don't have any kind of exhaustive list of medications or mental health issues, but i would trust people with that knowledge to be involved in the process.

[Adam]

If a responsible adult wants an AK-47, I don't think he should be punished because there is evil in the world. 

[Tank]

If a responsible adult wants an AK-47, I don't think he should be punished because there is evil in the world. 

 

that gets into the area of why any civilian needs a gun that powerful. i don't think me or you or anyone else needs to have a military-grade weapon.

[Adam]

There are thousands of things we don't need. Namely, any beverage that isn't water. 

[RuledByNone]

The myth outpaces reality with regards to the AK. General issue weapons from a bunch of countries are far more powerful. HK G3 and FN FAL. WW2 issue M1 Garand was also. The only thing special about the AK was reliability.

[Angelsjunky]

There are thousands of things we don't need. Namely, any beverage that isn't water. 

 

Wrong. I need IPA.

 

[Angelsjunky]

You may be surprised to hear me say this, mtangelsfan, but I really appreciate and basically agree with your reasonable take.

 

I also agree with Geoff (what is wrong with me?!) in that regardless of what gun laws are passed, situations like mass shootings are still going to occur. Now more restrictive ("common sense") gun laws may reduce them slightly, but if nut-jobs want to shoot shit up, they'll find a way. So there is a deeper societal problem that needs to be addressed.

 

i guess i'm thinking of people who are being treated for things like PTSD or schizophrenia or are bipolar, as well as those being treated with medication.

 

IMO, PTSD is hugely under-estimated, that something like 90%+ of combat veterans experience some degree of it - and that it isn't a disorder, but simply a syndrome that is natural and predictable if a human being is in a situation like combat. Some therapists prefer to call it "PTS" because of this.

[the dude abides]

Wrong. I need IPA.

 

 

Damn skippy.

[halomatt]

I really have nothing to contribute here, but I just want to say thanks for all of the sensible ideas and their rebuttals.  I appreciate the information on the current laws to obtaining firearms. 

 

I'm just as confused and frustrated as before I read this thread.  That's not anyone's fault, but rather the complexity of the issue.  Stay safe, all. 

[gotbeer]

Anything more than 12,252 posts on a message board should be warning flag.

 

<===Now you are trolling.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But yeah, some of us are screwed.

Edited December 4, 2015 by gotbeer

[Tank]

One of the stats discussed yesterday was that there have been 346 days this year, and there have been 351 multiple victim shootings in the US this year. More than one per day!

Something needs to change, and soon.

[ABC]

If a responsible adult wants an AK-47, I don't think he should be punished because there is evil in the world. 

 

[ABC]

One of the stats discussed yesterday was that there have been 346 days this year, and there have been 351 multiple victim shootings in the US this year. More than one per day!

Something needs to change, and soon.

 

400MM people. Not bad.

[RuledByNone]

One of the stats discussed yesterday was that there have been 346 days this year, and there have been 351 multiple victim shootings in the US this year. More than one per day!

Something needs to change, and soon.

Better to use real stats (fbi etc).

 

"Mass Shooting Tracker included in its list of 2013 mass shootings a relatively harmless incident involving no serious injuries in which two boys aged 11 and 12 allegedly shot four people with BB guns."

http://truthinmedia.com/fact-check-355-mass-shootings-far-2015/

 

Washington Post and the other MSM that used that stat whiffed pretty badly.

[ABC]

 

Why is it that the countries that have the highest homicide rate often have among the lowest gun ownership percentage? Mexico, Brazil, Honduras, Colombia all have gun ownership levels below 10% but have terrible gun homicide statistics. Switzerland has gun ownership rates of about 50% but has very low gun crime.

 

Could there instead be a correlation between homicide rate and a government created black market with extremely high profit motive (prohibition)? Prohibition of alcohol resulted in a huge expansion of organized crime throughout the country with a very small (few percent) reduction in alcohol consumption. Removing the prohibition also removed the profit motive and the accompanying crime. Prohibition doesn't work. If you are truly honest about reducing crime then removing a prohibition (drugs) would be more effective than increasing another.

 

The Swiss comparison is poor:

 

1. There is mandatory military service and the issued rifle goes home with the person.

 

2. It is an affluent country in Western Europe.

 

FYI, there is a slight problem with men shooting their wives. 

 

BTW, there are areas with strong gun laws and strong drug laws, like the UK, that do not see the levels of violent crime as reported in many Latin American countries.

Edited December 4, 2015 by CF8

[ABC]

Better to use real stats (fbi etc).

 

"Mass Shooting Tracker included in its list of 2013 mass shootings a relatively harmless incident involving no serious injuries in which two boys aged 11 and 12 allegedly shot four people with BB guns."

http://truthinmedia.com/fact-check-355-mass-shootings-far-2015/

 

Washington Post and the other MSM that used that stat whiffed pretty badly.

 

Yeah those headline stats of more than one per day are garbage. They include gang shootings, etc.

[Tank]

so gang shootings shouldn't count?

[ABC]

Depends

[RuledByNone]

The Swiss comparison is poor:

 

1. There is mandatory military service and the issued rifle goes home with the person.

 

2. It is an affluent country in Western Europe.

 

FYI, there is a slight problem with men shooting their wives. 

 

BTW, there are areas with strong gun laws and strong drug laws, like the UK, that do not see the levels of violent crime as reported in many Latin American countries.

Switzerland was used to refute the often implied correlation of higher gun ownership automatically leading to high homicide rate. Why would the affluence of the country or the manner the weapons were acquired disqualify it from disproving a correlation? Of course there are more relevant factors specific to each country that deserve consideration before the obviously flawed high gun ownership/ high homicide rate correlation. That was the point.

Low gun ownership- low homicide rate (eg. Japan)

Low gun ownership- high homicide rate (eg. Mexico)

High gun ownership- low homicide rate ( eg. Switzerland)

High gun ownership- high homicide rate (eg. USA*)

Not a reliable correlation.

 

Just because I mentioned prohibition of drugs and the high crime rate that goes with it does not imply that it is the only or even most important factor leading to homicide rate. Countries like Japan and South Korea (often labelled "shame societies" by cultural anthropologists) are very different culturally than most other places in the world. Crime that is much more tolerated elsewhere is shunned in those countries and the perpetrator is made to feel shame and dishonor. On the downside, they also have a much higher suicide rate.

 

I mentioned the repeal of drug prohibition because it would be a lot easier to implement than trying to change the culture among the most violent offenders. The "war on drugs" didn't work (or perhaps worked exactly as intended).

[nate]

Mexico is third world. Not a good comparison. Among first world countries with low gun ownership the murder rates are significantly lower than the US across the board

[Stradling]

Switzerland also has very little immigration and I would assume very low poverty rate.

[Glen]

Switzerland also has very little immigration and I would assume very low poverty rate.

 

 

And, hot broads, if you believe the internet.

 

Like HM said earlier, I have nothing to add to the discussion at hand and appreciate the way it's been handled in this thread.  It's well past the time for a rational discussion about what can be done.

[nate]

By the way, the reason why Switzerland is so high is because all men aged 20-30 are expected to go through militia training and that includes the issuance of a firearm.  They are kept at home without ammunition.

 

 

Storage of military-issued ammunition[edit]

Prior to 2007 members of the Swiss Militia were supplied with 50-rounds of ammunition for their military weapon in a sealed ammo box that was regularly audited by the government. This was so that, in the case of an emergency, the militia could respond quickly. However, since 2007 this practice has been discontinued. Only 2,000 specialist militia members (who protect airports and other sites of particular sensitivity) are permitted to keep their military-issued ammunition at home. The rest of the militia get their ammunition from their military armory in the event of an emergency.^[7][11]

 

[Spirit]

Mass shootings are up, but overall gun violence is down since the 1990's.  Why is that?  Could it be a societal thing that is unique to the US?  24 hour cable news that feeds off and promotes big events like this?  An entertainment industry that celebrates violence in movies and music?

 

I don't know the answer, but those seem like they would be big components.