Worst Case Replay Scenario

[LAA Road Tripper]

Since we have a few days until the next Angel game, I thought that I’d throw out this subject for discussion. First, let me state that I’m generally in favor of replay. I appreciate the concept of “getting the call right.” I do miss somewhat, however, the finality of a call even when it’s wrong. Plus, there have been a number of calls I’ve seen this year upheld or overturned that, to me, we're really mind boggling.

That said, a call is often contingent upon a previous call. This is where replay has the potential to break down. The following scenario was inspired by a similar situation in Oakland in the middle of last season. Here it goes:

Game 7 at Busch Stadium. Bottom of the ninth inning. Angels 2, Cardinals 1 and the bases are loaded with one out. Jhonny Peralta hits a quick, one-hopper to Albert Pujols who is playing about 10 feet off the bag, not holding on Kolten Wong at first. As Albert catches the ball, he thinks the quickest route to a double play is to tag Wong as he runs by and then run to first base to complete the double play clinching the Angels’ second championship. However, the first base umpire calls Wong safe, Albert missed the tag. At this point, knowing the force is still in order, Pujols throws home to get an easy out and set up a bases-loaded, two-out situation which still favors the Angels. But wait. Mike Matheny challenges the play contending that Pujols actually DID tag Wong thereby making the force out at home null and the run scores. Replay upholds Matheny’s contention and the game is tied. The next batter flies out but St. Louis wins it in the 10th.

I could probably imagine an even more painful picture but my point is there are many gaps in the replay system. Unlikely as it may be, the above scenario would be MLB’s nightmare. Discuss.

[Blarg]

Pujols should have hit a three Homer so even replay could **** up the game.

[JoJo26]

So you're saying the NL will win the All-Star game Tuesday?

Edited July 13, 2015 by JoJo26

[ELEVEN]

Since we have a few days until the next Angel game, I thought that I’d throw out this subject for discussion. First, let me state that I’m generally in favor of replay. I appreciate the concept of “getting the call right.” I do miss somewhat, however, the finality of a call even when it’s wrong. Plus, there have been a number of calls I’ve seen this year upheld or overturned that, to me, we're really mind boggling.

That said, a call is often contingent upon a previous call. This is where replay has the potential to break down. The following scenario was inspired by a similar situation in Oakland in the middle of last season. Here it goes:

Game 7 at Busch Stadium. Bottom of the ninth inning. Angels 2, Cardinals 1 and the bases are loaded with one out. Jhonny Peralta hits a quick, one-hopper to Albert Pujols who is playing about 10 feet off the bag, not holding on Kolten Wong at first. As Albert catches the ball, he thinks the quickest route to a double play is to tag Wong as he runs by and then run to first base to complete the double play clinching the Angels’ second championship. However, the first base umpire calls Wong safe, Albert missed the tag. At this point, knowing the force is still in order, Pujols throws home to get an easy out and set up a bases-loaded, two-out situation which still favors the Angels. But wait. Mike Matheny challenges the play contending that Pujols actually DID tag Wong thereby making the force out at home null and the run scores. Replay upholds Matheny’s contention and the game is tied. The next batter flies out but St. Louis wins it in the 10th.

I could probably imagine an even more painful picture but my point is there are many gaps in the replay system. Unlikely as it may be, the above scenario would be MLB’s nightmare. Discuss.

As thought provoking as that is, you my friend, need a 4 day break.

[The Ghost of Bob Starr]

Since we have a few days until the next Angel game, I thought that I’d throw out this subject for discussion. First, let me state that I’m generally in favor of replay. I appreciate the concept of “getting the call right.” I do miss somewhat, however, the finality of a call even when it’s wrong. Plus, there have been a number of calls I’ve seen this year upheld or overturned that, to me, we're really mind boggling.

That said, a call is often contingent upon a previous call. This is where replay has the potential to break down. The following scenario was inspired by a similar situation in Oakland in the middle of last season. Here it goes:

Game 7 at Busch Stadium. Bottom of the ninth inning. Angels 2, Cardinals 1 and the bases are loaded with one out. Jhonny Peralta hits a quick, one-hopper to Albert Pujols who is playing about 10 feet off the bag, not holding on Kolten Wong at first. As Albert catches the ball, he thinks the quickest route to a double play is to tag Wong as he runs by and then run to first base to complete the double play clinching the Angels’ second championship. However, the first base umpire calls Wong safe, Albert missed the tag. At this point, knowing the force is still in order, Pujols throws home to get an easy out and set up a bases-loaded, two-out situation which still favors the Angels. But wait. Mike Matheny challenges the play contending that Pujols actually DID tag Wong thereby making the force out at home null and the run scores. Replay upholds Matheny’s contention and the game is tied. The next batter flies out but St. Louis wins it in the 10th.

I could probably imagine an even more painful picture but my point is there are many gaps in the replay system. Unlikely as it may be, the above scenario would be MLB’s nightmare. Discuss.

Eleven is right. Spend the next several days binging on Porn and Webster.

[LAA Road Tripper]

As thought provoking as that is, you my friend, need a 4 day break.

Oh, I need a lot of things. A four day break just scratches the surface. 😄

[Docwaukee]

So you're saying the NL will win the All-Star game Tuesday?

'Who am I?  I'm the guy who put the bathrooms in this joint" 

[Docwaukee]

Carlos Perez - in as a defensive replacement, would have thrown to first to complete the double play anyway.  

[hen3ry]

Eleven is right. Spend the next several days binging on Porn and Webster.

 

 

There's porn of Webster?  The internet is a very sick place, I tell you.  Sick!

[Guest]

Since we have a few days until the next Angel game, I thought that I’d throw out this subject for discussion. First, let me state that I’m generally in favor of replay. I appreciate the concept of “getting the call right.” I do miss somewhat, however, the finality of a call even when it’s wrong. Plus, there have been a number of calls I’ve seen this year upheld or overturned that, to me, we're really mind boggling.

That said, a call is often contingent upon a previous call. This is where replay has the potential to break down. The following scenario was inspired by a similar situation in Oakland in the middle of last season. Here it goes:

Game 7 at Busch Stadium. Bottom of the ninth inning. Angels 2, Cardinals 1 and the bases are loaded with one out. Jhonny Peralta hits a quick, one-hopper to Albert Pujols who is playing about 10 feet off the bag, not holding on Kolten Wong at first. As Albert catches the ball, he thinks the quickest route to a double play is to tag Wong as he runs by and then run to first base to complete the double play clinching the Angels’ second championship. However, the first base umpire calls Wong safe, Albert missed the tag. At this point, knowing the force is still in order, Pujols throws home to get an easy out and set up a bases-loaded, two-out situation which still favors the Angels. But wait. Mike Matheny challenges the play contending that Pujols actually DID tag Wong thereby making the force out at home null and the run scores. Replay upholds Matheny’s contention and the game is tied. The next batter flies out but St. Louis wins it in the 10th.

I could probably imagine an even more painful picture but my point is there are many gaps in the replay system. Unlikely as it may be, the above scenario would be MLB’s nightmare. Discuss.

I remember that game... The A's got screwed and Melvin IMO rightly got himself ejected.

The solution there is not difficult though -- call on the field should be assumed to stand in so far as it affects continuation plays.

That should have been missed tag overturned on replay, tag out for out two, but still force out at home (treated as separate play and out 3) as at the time the out was made at the plate, the players had to assume the call in the field was valid and the force was in effect.

Edited July 13, 2015 by ScottLux

[AngelsLakersFan]

What was the situation in Oakland?

[mancini79]

Since we have a few days until the next Angel game, I thought that I’d throw out this subject for discussion. First, let me state that I’m generally in favor of replay. I appreciate the concept of “getting the call right.” I do miss somewhat, however, the finality of a call even when it’s wrong. Plus, there have been a number of calls I’ve seen this year upheld or overturned that, to me, we're really mind boggling.

That said, a call is often contingent upon a previous call. This is where replay has the potential to break down. The following scenario was inspired by a similar situation in Oakland in the middle of last season. Here it goes:

Game 7 at Busch Stadium. Bottom of the ninth inning. Angels 2, Cardinals 1 and the bases are loaded with one out. Jhonny Peralta hits a quick, one-hopper to Albert Pujols who is playing about 10 feet off the bag, not holding on Kolten Wong at first. As Albert catches the ball, he thinks the quickest route to a double play is to tag Wong as he runs by and then run to first base to complete the double play clinching the Angels’ second championship. However, the first base umpire calls Wong safe, Albert missed the tag. At this point, knowing the force is still in order, Pujols throws home to get an easy out and set up a bases-loaded, two-out situation which still favors the Angels. But wait. Mike Matheny challenges the play contending that Pujols actually DID tag Wong thereby making the force out at home null and the run scores. Replay upholds Matheny’s contention and the game is tied. The next batter flies out but St. Louis wins it in the 10th.

I could probably imagine an even more painful picture but my point is there are many gaps in the replay system. Unlikely as it may be, the above scenario would be MLB’s nightmare. Discuss.

 

When challenging a call, the manager needs to be specific. In your situation Wong was safe at first and the runner was out at home. Matheny's only options are to challenge that Wong was out at first OR the runner was safe at home. He can't pick both. So even if the challenge calls Wong out at first, that has no impact on the original out call at home.

[AngelsLakersFan]

I remember that game... The A's got screwed and Melvin IMO rightly got himself ejected.

The x solution there is not difficult though -- call on the field should be assumed to stand in so far as it affects continuation plays.

That should have been missed tag overturned on replay, but still force out at home as at the time the out was made at the place, the players had to assume the call in the field was valid.

 

That's an odd way of doing things. Not to say that there is a better solution, but it will look quite confusing in the box score.

 

A lot of decisions players make are contingent on umpire calls on the field. Over turning those calls puts in to question the decisions of players on the field. This is my biggest issue with replay. For the most part it seems that MLB has addressed this by 'playing theoretical baseball.' The most common example is when they put runners at certain bases based on where they think they should've ended up, had the call been made correctly. Truth is, who knows where they would have ended up if the call was made correctly?

[Docwaukee]

BTW, there should be a rule that determines that any play subsequent to an overturned call should be played as if the original call was correct although I am sure there are scenarios where this would be an issue as well.  

[Inside Pitch]

Eleven is right. Spend the next several days binging on Porn and Webster.

So interracial midget porn?

[AngelsLakersFan]

BTW, there should be a rule that determines that any play subsequent to an overturned call should be played as if the original call was correct although I am sure there are scenarios where this would be an issue as well.  

Ex:

 

Low line drive hit to RF. Runner at first anticipates / sees the ball bounce off the turf and into the glove for a trap and runs to second. Umpire calls for a catch, and the runner is doubled off at first base. Batting team challenges and gets the call in the outfield over turned, but in your example the runner would still be doubled off at first. 

[wopphil]

When challenging a call, the manager needs to be specific. In your situation Wong was safe at first and the runner was out at home. Matheny's only options are to challenge that Wong was out at first OR the runner was safe at home. He can't pick both. So even if the challenge calls Wong out at first, that has no impact on the original out call at home.

Can Matheny even challenge the call at first?

[mancini79]

Can Matheny even challenge the call at first?

 

I'm sure he can. But no manager would be dumb enough to do it.

[LAA Road Tripper]

Under this example, sure he would if the outcome was the tying run.

[mancini79]

The part I hate about the replay procedure is that 1 replay rule is not enforced. A manager can lose his first challenge, then plea with the umps to use their challenge later in the game. I have not seen an ump deny a challenge.

[mancini79]

Under this example, sure he would if the outcome was the tying run.

 

No it wouldn't since he can't challenge both calls at once. There was a call at first and a call at home. Two separate calls and in the context of instant replay they are not correlated.

[Docwaukee]

Ex:

 

Low line drive hit to RF. Runner at first anticipates / sees the ball bounce off the turf and into the glove for a trap and runs to second. Umpire calls for a catch, and the runner is doubled off at first base. Batting team challenges and gets the call in the outfield over turned, but in your example the runner would still be doubled off at first. 

good one.  although the first play probably didn't change what the runner did.  The runner was on the move because he thought it was a trap.  Not because the ump called it one.  

 

but there are a couple of other scenarios that could unfold out of this as well.

 

1.  Runner goes half way and guy dives and the ump calls it a catch so the guy goes back to first easily.  Replay shows he trapped it and the runner on first gets automatically moved to 2b whereas if it was called correctly, the defender might have had a chance at throwing the runner out at 2b.  

 

2.  Same scenario except that the ump calls a trap on the ball a guy caught.  Runner already on his way to 2b and gets there easily.  Replay shows he caught it.  What do they do with the runner?  Put him back on first?  probably, but he would have been easily doubled off if it were called correctly.

 

3.  Another and potentially more catastrophic scenario.  Bottom 9.  Tie score.  1 out.  Runner on 3b.  Guy dives for a fly ball and catches it, but ump calls it a trap for a walk off win.  Replay overturns the call and puts the runner back on 3b.  Runner could have easily tagged if it was called a catch, but they can't assume a sac fly.   Now two outs and a guy on third.  Next guy makes an out and innings is over.  

[Guest]

 

 

When challenging a call, the manager needs to be specific. In your situation Wong was safe at first and the runner was out at home. Matheny's only options are to challenge that Wong was out at first OR the runner was safe at home. He can't pick both. So even if the challenge calls Wong out at first, that has no impact on the original out call at home.

Under that scenario Matheny can challenge that Wong was actaully out on the tag running from first to second, and that a run scores as no tag was applied at home. This has actually happened before.

 

What was the situation in Oakland?

 

 

The OP actaully described the situation in Oakland last year, just changed the names:

 

http://www.mercurynews.com/athletics/ci_26087977/playing-blue-jays-under-protest-after-crazy-first

 

 

"...Gray induced Anthony Gose to hit a ground ball to first baseman Nate Freiman with the bases loaded and one out.  Freiman tried to tag Munenori Kawasaki as the Blue Jays runner went from first to second. First base umpire Vic Carapazza signaled Freiman missed Kawasaki. Freiman then fired to Vogt for a force out at home.

 

Blue Jays manager John Gibbons challenged the ruling on Freiman's attempted tag of Kawasaki, knowing if the call got overturned, Edwin Encarnacion would be safe at home because the force play no longer was in effect and Vogt didn't tag Encarnacion.

 

The umpires huddled, reviewed the play and sided with Gibbons. That gave the Blue Jays a run."

Edited July 13, 2015 by ScottLux

[LAA Road Tripper]

Under that scenario Matheny can challenge that Wong was actaully out on at first, and that the run scores at home as no tag was applied. This has actually happened before.

The OP actaully described the situation in Oakland last year, just changed the names:

http://www.mercurynews.com/athletics/ci_26087977/playing-blue-jays-under-protest-after-crazy-first

"...Gray induced Anthony Gose to hit a ground ball to first baseman Nate Freiman with the bases loaded and one out. Freiman tried to tag Munenori Kawasaki as the Blue Jays runner went from first to second. First base umpire Vic Carapazza signaled Freiman missed Kawasaki. Freiman then fired to Vogt for a force out at home.

Blue Jays manager John Gibbons challenged the ruling on Freiman's attempted tag of Kawasaki, knowing if the call got overturned, Edwin Encarnacion would be safe at home because the force play no longer was in effect and Vogt didn't tag Encarnacion.

The umpires huddled, reviewed the play and sided with Gibbons. That gave the Blue Jays a run."

Thanks Scott. I was too lazy to research the actual event but it underscores the magnitude of a pretty big loophole. No matter which way you slice it there could a bad outcome. I'd like to think that MLB has considered it and put in some safeguards for this kind of possibility but my guess is they haven't. Maybe Jeff Fletcher could chime in here.

Edited July 13, 2015 by LAA Road Tripper

[ELEVEN]

What about replaying the at bat if there is no clear resolution?