Gameday Thread (3/11/24): Rangers @ Angels: Sandoval starting

[Ochocinco!]

I’ve gotten shit all off-season for wanting to dump Sandoval. Dude hasn’t changed a bit, it’s only spring but it’s not like he’s good in the regular season. 1 or 2 good starts every couple months to give you hope followed 4/5 straight starts with games like this. He has 2 years left of control, would you want to pay him? 
I say no and get a bat or a couple of prospects for him. Sign snell. Move on 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

2 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

You guys are hilarious.

Maybe, I just hate inconsistency! Especially, after having watched the same thing across the last few seasons with a little improvement which at this point would be the small sample size.

Obviously, he doesn't get it or doesn't know how to fix it.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

18 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

That's actually quite good. 

I knew you didn't like him. What I don't get is if fans on AW see these "issues" then why wouldn't another GM? If he's not worth keeping for a team that has no pitching depth, then what exactly are we going to get in a trade for him?

Depends. An experienced pitching coach or Manager that was a pitcher may take a flier on him thinking that a change in voice will work. The tools are there! At this point it's mental.

IF you go back and look at the pitching coaches that he's had the main one with quality Major League experience never got to start the Job in Callaway.

The rest have been gurus, minor league guys, assistants etc.

[tdawg87]

2 minutes ago, Ochocinco! said:

I’ve gotten shit all off-season for wanting to dump Sandoval. Dude hasn’t changed a bit, it’s only spring but it’s not like he’s good in the regular season. 1 or 2 good starts every couple months to give you hope followed 4/5 straight starts up games like this. He has 2 years left of control, would you want to pay him? 
I say no and get a bat or a couple of prospects for him. Sign snell. Move on 

3 years of control. 

His ERA+ the last 3 years has been well above average. Even last year it was 109. 

If you think he's frustrating and you want to sign Snell boy do I have some bad news for you. 

 

[Ochocinco!]

Just now, tdawg87 said:

3 years of control. 

His ERA+ the last 3 years has been well above average. Even last year it was 109. 

If you think he's frustrating and you want to sign Snell boy do I have some bad news for you. 

 

Snell is annoying but has won 2 cy youngs.. Sandoval is just annoying 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

3 minutes ago, Ochocinco! said:

Snell is annoying but has won 2 cy youngs.. Sandoval is just annoying 

Without the Hardware! Or, success.

[tdawg87]

Just now, Ochocinco! said:

Snell is annoying but has won 2 cy youngs.. Sandoval is just annoying 

So why not have both? Sandoval is not a #1 guy but he's perfectly fine as a #3 starter. He may be annoying to watch, but the results are there. The stats don't lie. 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

Just now, tdawg87 said:

So why not have both? Sandoval is not a #1 guy but he's perfectly fine as a #3 starter. He may be annoying to watch, but the results are there. The stats don't lie. 

Sandavol at this point due to inconsistency should be a #5 guy! Flip a coin what you'll get every start.

[totdprods]

20 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

That's actually quite good. 

I knew you didn't like him. What I don't get is if fans on AW see these "issues" then why wouldn't another GM? If he's not worth keeping for a team that has no pitching depth, then what exactly are we going to get in a trade for him?

No, I think he still has plenty of value and is capable of being a solid pitcher, I just don't think he's going to be what Angel fans, or even the Angels FO, are hoping he can do, and I'm not sure the new coaching staff will elevate him in time before either his wheels fall off or he winds up injured. Call it change of scenery. 

Just think that there's a decent chance he winds up totally sucking or going under the knife before he gets any better than what we've seen, but that there's still enough there for a team like (at least at the start of the offseason) Baltimore, Milwaukee, Minnesota, San Diego, or the Dodgers that would have been willing to roll the dice while also having some young hitters to part with, someone of fair and comparable value. Was never expecting to get a perennial all-star in return, and at the start of the winter, I felt there was enough reasonable mid-tier SP to try and replace him that way. I'm also not indicting the current coaching staff already - just think Sandoval's gotten in his head that he needs to be something he isn't going to attain here, and that "resetting" to another team might help him get a fresh start.

I've never thought he was bad. Just trying to capitalize on his value before it or he goes away.

Edited March 11 by totdprods

[Angel Oracle]

Past two seasons, his WHIP has been 1.34 and 1.51.

He’s living on the edge.   That ultimately  isn’t a #3 starter.

The one thing keeping him from being a mediocre pitcher is the high GB rate.

His control issue isn’t going away, and he melts down in adversity.

Snell doesn’t melt down in adversity.

Edited March 11 by Angel Oracle

[tdawg87]

Just now, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

Sandavol at this point due to inconsistency should be a #5 guy! Flip a coin what you'll get every start.

You guys are letting your emotions cloud your judgement.

The last 3 seasons he has put up a 124, 138, and 109 ERA+ respectively. 

So in reality, he's actually been pretty damn good. 

[tdawg87]

3 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Past two seasons, his WHIP has been 1.34 and 1.51.

He’s living on the edge.   That ultimately  isn’t a #3 starter.

The one thing keeping him from being a mediocre pitcher is the high GB rate.

His control issue isn’t going away, and he melts down in adversity.

Snell doesn’t melt down in adversity.

Yeah, that's a significant part of being a successful pitcher. So if he's not "mediocre", what does that make him?

[Angel Oracle]

Just now, tdawg87 said:

Yeah, that's a significant part of being a successful pitcher. So if he's not "mediocre", what does that make him?

Living on the edge?

[Tank]

1 minute ago, tdawg87 said:

Yeah, that's a significant part of being a successful pitcher. So if he's not "mediocre", what does that make him?

frustrating maybe? 

he has talent, and we've seen some of it. i think fans want to see him be more dominant. it seems like he has the talent to be that kind of pitcher.

[Dgar24]

35 minutes ago, totdprods said:

That's why I've been saying they needed to flip him all winter. We've extracted the best we as an org can get out of him, and I worry he's about to become even more ineffective or injured. Cash him in to add another young bat to the core and should've signed another SP earlier in the winter to step into his place. I just don't see him having the durability or consistency to make it as a MLB SP, sort of like Hector Santiago. He may be good for 20 GS/120 IP, or good for a few innings before crumbling, but I can't see him being a consistent SP on the reg.

This is absolute truth, sign Snell , Montgomery  preferably both. Trade this guy, somebody will take him.

[tdawg87]

2 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Living on the edge?

Aerosmith fan?

[Slegnaac]

14 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

You guys are letting your emotions cloud your judgement.

The last 3 seasons he has put up a 124, 138, and 109 ERA+ respectively. 

So in reality, he's actually been pretty damn good. 

Pitching every sixth day.

It will be interesting to see if the performance changes due to pitching every fifth day.

Edited March 11 by Slegnaac

[totdprods]

When I think about the last few years, I think about how much pressure the Angels have been under to compete for Trout and Ohtani, and how it's affected their decisions from the FO to the manager to the players on the field, and I think one of the players who have internalized this the most is Patrick Sandoval. I think he's a good pitcher, but I think he's got into his head he needs to be the ace or dominant #2 to help see this team through. I appreciate that. I appreciate the competitiveness, the effort, the heart. But I think he's backed himself into a corner where he puts an unrealistic amount of pressure on himself to be something he cannot be, and even though the expectations have changed and Ohtani is gone, the Halos haven't brought in anyone ahead of him for the rotation. I see him right back where he's been the last few years. He is going to get himself hurt or continue to implode because he's expecting results he doesn't have the ability to deliver. 

If you had moved him for someone like Jordan Westburg and he was slotting into a team that was already competitive and had a trio of better arms above him and around him, I think it would do him good to pitch more to what he is and will be, and less to something he wants to be, or less of something the Angels hope he will be. If he is on a smart team with pitching depth, a place where he can top out at 4 1/3 innings or 20 GS/120 IP and be a big part of a team's success, an acquiring team will have interest in him, and the Angels can get a young bat with more club control than Sandy has, and it'll be better for him maxing out his true ceiling rather than trying to do more than that here.

Maybe that makes my stance a little more clear. 

I also mention Westburg because he sort of reminds me of Drury. Some swing-and-miss concerns, defensive question marks, but has some pop and positional versatility. Orioles are stacked and could lose him without hurting them.

Edited March 11 by totdprods

[Halo in Chicago]

I like Sandoval. I want him to succeed in Anaheim, but man is he frustrating… 

I do think he would benefit from being a #3/4 rather then trying to be a #2. 

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

Zuniga not so good, Al.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

41 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

You guys are letting your emotions cloud your judgement.

The last 3 seasons he has put up a 124, 138, and 109 ERA+ respectively. 

So in reality, he's actually been pretty damn good. 

Not really, I watch for repeatable flowing mechanics from start to follow through. He either tries to over throw,  front side leaks and his arm can't catch up, elbow flattens out and his pitches drift outside. Or, he lands on his heal which means he has to go over the mountain to bring it back down to the strikezone and spins out either going up or in the dirt.. the times he lands flat its a strike for the most part... or 25% of the time. Or 1 strike in 4 pitches 2 strikes in 8 pitches x 3 batters an inning = 24 pitches minimum or 40 in 2 innings. What's his avg pitch count per hitter and where is he count wise at pitch #3 in the at bat. I'd say 60-70% of the time he's chasing 2-1...

[tdawg87]

1 minute ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

Not really, I watch for repeatable flowing mechanics from start to follow through. He either tries to over throw,  front side leaks and his arm can't catch up, elbow flattens out and his pitches drift outside. Or, he lands on his heal which means he has to go over the mountain to bring it back down to the strikezone and spins out either going up or in the dirt..

Neat.

I watch for fun. Then I look at the stats. 

[T.G.]

Rendon with a double and two walks today.   Worth every dollar.

[BTH]

Basically, the Angels should just:

- Sign Snell

- Sign JD Martinez

- Sign JD Davis

- Trade Sandoval for a young second basemen

- Trade Jo Adell

All before Opening Day in two weeks. Sound good?

/s

[BTH]

I give it an 80% chance we see a “Willie Calhoun has been reassigned to minor league camp” in the next 24 hours.