The Official Los Angeles Angels 2023-2024 Hot Stove Offseason Thread

[AngelsLakersFan]

12 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

It's a perception thing with Snell, his pitch counts get him into trouble.  It's possible it's being overstated but the reality is his lack of innings was/is constantly being brought up.

And people can talk about how pitchers don't go as deep in games as they did in the past and how the game is evolving, I'd make that argument too.  But the reality is the guys that make that sort of money tend to go deeper into games.

The one thing all teams do a better job of these days is gauging value.  It's possible that if the average performance of all 5-6 inning pitcher improves then their salaries come down when compared to the guys that go 6+ for the same reason you brought up in your other post, scarcity.

 

The difference between a guy like Snell averaging 5 innings vs 6 innings has got to be about the value of a good relief pitcher. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

12 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Vlad, Hunter, Escobar, Colon, Morales, Weaver, Orlando Cabrera.  

Seems weird to give an owner credit for signing his first round draft pick, especially after making him sit out almost a year. 

Looking at the 2007 team, 6 of the top 9 position players predated Arte, and 6 of the top 9 pitchers. 4 were Arte era FA signings. Arte has never had a problem adding a face for a billboard to the top the the roster, his issue has always been a complete disregard for the 5th-40th best players on the team.

[Erstad Grit]

12 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Seems weird to give an owner credit for signing his first round draft pick, especially after making him sit out almost a year. 

Looking at the 2007 team, 6 of the top 9 position players predated Arte, and 6 of the top 9 pitchers. 4 were Arte era FA signings. Arte has never had a problem adding a face for a billboard to the top the the roster, his issue has always been a complete disregard for the 5th-40th best players on the team.

It feels weird giving the owner credit or criticism on any player acquisitions.  They should set the budget and hire a GM and support a healthy system. 
 

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 minutes ago, Erstad Grit said:

It feels weird giving the owner credit or criticism on any player acquisitions.  They should set the budget and hire a GM and support a healthy system. 
 

Unfortunately that is not the world Angels fans live in.

[Stradling]

19 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Seems weird to give an owner credit for signing his first round draft pick, especially after making him sit out almost a year. 

Looking at the 2007 team, 6 of the top 9 position players predated Arte, and 6 of the top 9 pitchers. 4 were Arte era FA signings. Arte has never had a problem adding a face for a billboard to the top the the roster, his issue has always been a complete disregard for the 5th-40th best players on the team.

“Making him sit out a year” haha. Ok. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

18 minutes ago, Stradling said:

“Making him sit out a year” haha. Ok. 

Just seems weird to give Arte credit for signing Weaver after he was drafted in the first round and Arte refused to meet his contract demands. This is how low we need to go to find things to give Arte credit for I guess. Arte playing chicken with Jered Weaver over a few million dollars is indicative of why he is such a shitty owner.

[ThisismineScios]

I think the thing that bothers me the most is that we never know--and I mean never--what we're going to get. I truly thought Perry had a good offseason last year. Renfroe was a really solid slugger, Urshela was great depth, and Anderson just had a great year in 2022. He was allowed to navigate freely and did so with both trades and signings. This year, we had money to spend and holes to fill. And haven't at all, instead sitting $45 million under last year. But are we pushing hard to compete and win, or are we reloading and restocking the minors? There's just never any clarity. We have key guys on 1-year deals, 5 outfielders, the exact same rotation as last year, and didn't add a single hitter to our lineup. What's the plan? It seems like it's been this way mostly since 2016. Pitchers only to 1 year deals...just kidding Tyler Anderson, Iglesias, Aaron Loup, Tepera! Traded for Renfroe's contract, went all in at the deadline despite Trout and Rendon being hurt and a very unlikely chance at getting in. Not knowing what to expect is the most frustrating part. 

Even now. Trout and Washington have very clearly stated they want more guys. Perry too? Trout has been really, really vocal. JD Martinez apparently wants to be here. He has almost no other suitors. Why not sign him? Why not get another starter on a 1 year to have some depth, then possibly move someone at the deadline? It just doesn't ever follow any sort of pattern, and to be a fan with an owner like that makes it really hard when we are guessing all the time, and almost always end up doing a lot less than we hope for. 

[Docwaukee]

One position player that came through the Angels development pipeline since 2003 has/had accumulated more than 15 WAR.  

280 position players have accumulated 15 WAR or more in the last 21 years.  

There have been 3 pitchers in that category.  

173 pitchers have accumulated 15 WAR in the last 21 years.  

Let's do some silly math for a second.  450 players and 30 teams or 15 players per team.  So the halos are 11 short.  At 15 wins a piece that's 165 wins below average over the last 21 seasons.  

Obviously, there's probably a fair number of holes in that calc, but the raw numbers speak to the catastrophe that is supposed to be the lifeblood of every major league franchise.  

To me, the discussion about how this franchise has been run the last two decades starts and ends with this.  You don't start averaging 75 wins a season for almost a decade out of nowhere.  It starts years in advance of that.    

 

 

[Billy_Ball]

4 hours ago, ThisismineScios said:

He has almost no other suitors.

I think the Mets and Marlins also interested in JD.

[Stradling]

6 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Just seems weird to give Arte credit for signing Weaver after he was drafted in the first round and Arte refused to meet his contract demands. This is how low we need to go to find things to give Arte credit for I guess. Arte playing chicken with Jered Weaver over a few million dollars is indicative of why he is such a shitty owner.

The point I responded to was he road the coattails of the previous regime, so I pointed out players acquired after he took ownership. And the “over a few million dollars” for a draft pick is really dumb. He was asking for a record amount of money ($10.5 million) and Arte called Boras bluff and signed him for $4 million.  By the way, 20 years later the highest draft bonus ever is $9.2 million. But yes I’d give Arte credit for the Weaver draft pick because he was a sign-ability risk because of his contract demands and the Angels drafted him anyway. He then went on to be a top five pitcher in Angels history and was our ace.  One last thing about that draft class, there’s one player in the first round who had a better career than Weaver and that is Verlander who was taken before the Angels picked. So if the Angels passed on Weaver, because of contract demands, and drafted the 3rd best player drafted in the first round they would have got maybe Billy Butler or possibly Phil Hughes. Bottom line, early on, the team added quality players in Arte’s tenure that lead to success. 

[Inside Pitch]

7 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Just seems weird to give Arte credit for signing Weaver after he was drafted in the first round and Arte refused to meet his contract demands. This is how low we need to go to find things to give Arte credit for I guess. Arte playing chicken with Jered Weaver over a few million dollars is indicative of why he is such a shitty owner.

Yeah, that was IMO again Bill Stoneman.  Stoneman had to have been a difficult guy to bargain with, he essentially drew a line in the sand and wouldn't cross it.  I think his tendency to know when to say "no", is why Arte didn't try his usual BS on him.  

The thing that set Stoneman aside from the guys that followed him was his absolute commitment to the farm system. People forget or maybe just don't know how much money Stoneman dumped into the system -- he consistently spent first round money on guys taken in the middle of the draft and on draft and follow types. Mark Trumbo was taken in the 18th round because of signability concerns and a college commitment to USC. Nick Adenhart was taken in the 14th or 15th round after having been considered a potential 1-1 pick. Adenhart's selection raised eyebrows because he had gone down to Tommy John surgery in HS but Stoneman convinced the family that his best shot at making a full recovery was to have him be taken care of by the Angels medical staff.  Weaver, Adenhart, Trumbo were all taken in 2004.   

Stoneman swung and missed on other guys but at least they tried. Chris Davis, Buster Posey, Kyle Hendricks, Brian Matusz, Matt Harvey, Brandon Morrow, were all HS guys Stoneman attempted to throw money at, as were touted college FB guys Patrick White and Jake Locker. Some have attempted to lay the blame on Arte for not allowing him to offer more, but the reality is Stoneman was able to take more of those risks and offer more under Arte than he had at any point under Disney.

Stoneman is the single most impactful person in Angels history other than the guy that set out to get the radio rights to an expansion team and ended up a MLB owner.

[ThisismineScios]

4 hours ago, Billy_Ball said:

I think the Mets and Marlins also interested in JD.

Fair point, but I think JD sees the most opportunity here and it's a near perfect fit because we don't have a slugger to fill that role. Makes sense to everyone, and I hope Arte approves. 

[TroutField]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Yeah, that was IMO again Bill Stoneman.  Stoneman had to have been a difficult guy to bargain with, he essentially drew a line in the sand and wouldn't cross it.  I think his tendency to know when to say "no", is why Arte didn't try his usual BS on him.  

The thing that set Stoneman aside from the guys that followed him was his absolute commitment to the farm system. People forget or maybe just don't know how much money Stoneman dumped into the system -- he consistently spent first round money on guys taken in the middle of the draft and on draft and follow types. Mark Trumbo was taken in the 18th round because of signability concerns and a college commitment to USC. Nick Adenhart was taken in the 14th or 15th round after having been considered a potential 1-1 pick. Adenhart's selection raised eyebrows because he had gone down to Tommy John surgery in HS but Stoneman convinced the family that his best shot at making a full recovery was to have him be taken care of by the Angels medical staff.  Weaver, Adenhart, Trumbo were all taken in 2004.   

Stoneman swung and missed on other guys but at least they tried. Chris Davis, Buster Posey, Kyle Hendricks, Brian Matusz, Matt Harvey, Brandon Morrow, were all HS guys Stoneman attempted to throw money at, as were touted college FB guys Patrick White and Jake Locker. Some have attempted to lay the blame on Arte for not allowing him to offer more, but the reality is Stoneman was able to take more of those risks and offer more under Arte than he had at any point under Disney.

Stoneman is the single most impactful person in Angels history other than the guy that set out to get the radio rights to an expansion team and ended up a MLB owner.

This was the only point I was making. I had no clue it was going to blossom into this huge conversation.
 

Arte started to meddle with the player personnel decisions rather than letting the smart baseball people run it. (Stoneman and Scioscia) Arte would have been a terrific owner if he hired the best President, GM, and Manager talent and funded whatever they wanted. Thats essentially what Dodgers’ ownership group does with Andrew Friedman and the Dodgers’ front office. 

[DMVol]

5 hours ago, Billy_Ball said:

I think the Mets and Marlins also interested in JD.

 

38 minutes ago, ThisismineScios said:

Fair point, but I think JD sees the most opportunity here and it's a near perfect fit because we don't have a slugger to fill that role. Makes sense to everyone, and I hope Arte approves. 

Mets don't seem inclined to sign him.  I don't think we will either.  Having said that, Martinez, Montgomery, Lorenzen and Clevenger have to find a home soon, don't they?

[Inside Pitch]

21 minutes ago, TroutField said:

This was the only point I was making. I had no clue it was going to blossom into this huge conversation.
 

Arte started to meddle with the player personnel decisions rather than letting the smart baseball people run it. (Stoneman and Scioscia) Arte would have been a terrific owner if he hired the best President, GM, and Manager talent and funded whatever they wanted. Thats essentially what Dodgers’ ownership group does with Andrew Friedman and the Dodgers’ front office. 

Bro, you could make a comment about liking McDonald's egg McMuffins and it will turn into some inane argument about Arte, Rendon, or some other Angels hot topic if for no other reason because the entire fan-base; die-hards and bandwagon types alike are frustrated with the team and looking to vent. People are antsy AF, and yet the fan-base has probably never been more united on a lot of things, mostly that things need change. 

You say Arte could have been a great owner had he hired a great GM ect.. That's part of the frustration, most everyone here either remembers when or lived through the era of Angels baseball were they were considered an elite team with one of the best front offices in baseball so the current shit show is even more annoying. I seriously have come to wonder if part of why Stoneman retired was due his having grown weary of Arte trying to interfere.  It's not like he wasn't out in front with his opinions in those days too, the dude loved Tejada, openly sang his praises to the point where the A's at one point had the Angels looked at for potential tampering charges. Most of MLB believed the Angels would be all over him and yet when they had the chance Stoneman said nope -- we have a couple guys we like.  

For whatever reasons, Stoneman managed to keep Arte in check...  it's been very different ever since.  IMO, Arte went off the rails the winter Reagins showed up late to the winter meetings.  It's been stupid ever since.

 

[Erstad Grit]

12 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Bro, you could make a comment about liking McDonald's egg McMuffins and it will turn into some inane argument about Arte, Rendon, or some other Angels hot topic if for no other reason because the entire fan-base; die-hards and bandwagon types alike are frustrated with the team and looking to vent. People are antsy AF, and yet the fan-base has probably never been more united on a lot of things, mostly that things need change. 

You say Arte could have been a great owner had he hired a great GM ect.. That's part of the frustration, most everyone here either remembers when or lived through the era of Angels baseball were they were considered an elite team with one of the best front offices in baseball so the current shit show is even more annoying. I seriously have come to wonder if part of why Stoneman retired was due his having grown weary of Arte trying to interfere.  It's not like he wasn't out in front with his opinions in those days too, the dude loved Tejada, openly sang his praises to the point where the A's at one point had the Angels looked at for potential tampering charges. Most of MLB believed the Angels would be all over him and yet when they had the chance Stoneman said nope -- we have a couple guys we like.  

For whatever reasons, Stoneman managed to keep Arte in check...  it's been very different ever since.  IMO, Arte went off the rails the winter Reagins showed up late to the winter meetings.  It's been stupid ever since.

 

Yup

I heard an interview with Arte and Lodge (imagine the train wreck that would be) from ST and Arte genuinely thinks he knows a lot about baseball. He was trying to articulate what players are trying to do at ST, and he knows jack. Arte should be giving zero input on players, I'd like to discover if Perry has the goods or not.

[BTH]

50 minutes ago, Erstad Grit said:

Yup

I heard an interview with Arte and Lodge (imagine the train wreck that would be) from ST and Arte genuinely thinks he knows a lot about baseball. He was trying to articulate what players are trying to do at ST, and he knows jack. Arte should be giving zero input on players, I'd like to discover if Perry has the goods or not.

Where’d you hear that interview?

Any idea if it’s archived somewhere?

[Dtwncbad]

4 minutes ago, BTH said:

Where’d you hear that interview?

Any idea if it’s archived somewhere?

I have it for you.  Here you go:

[T.G.]

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Bro, you could make a comment about liking McDonald's egg McMuffins

Sir, this is an INO forum. 

[T.G.]

1 hour ago, BTH said:

Where’d you hear that interview?

Any idea if it’s archived somewhere?

BrownNoseRadio.com

[Erstad Grit]

1 hour ago, BTH said:

Where’d you hear that interview?

Any idea if it’s archived somewhere?

It was on 830 during Lodge show. Lodge asked Arte about Trout getting a lot of at bats in ST  and Arte started babling about the SS backhand and throw needs to be a hard throw.

[ThisismineScios]

One of my coworkers went to ST last weekend with his family. His son (10-11) went and talked to Arte. Arte literally talked to this kid for 5-10 minutes, some in English some in Spanish. The dad told my boss that even though he doesn't like the guy, he was impressed at how open and friendly he was and willing to talk to him. 

My aunt is at Spring Training and sat close to Arte. She said him and Carpino were watching together and gave each other a big high five when Sano knocked in Rendon yesterday. 
(My response was, "Great, he probably told Carpino, 'Who needs JD???'.")

Obviously this guy still loves baseball and the atmosphere. Again, why are you not going out and spending $ so your team is better and more competitive? Just an impossible guy to figure out. 

[Jay]

Apparently "Arte wants to win" but is unwilling to do what it takes to win.

[Dtwncbad]

If Moreno gets fired up and motivated over unfinished business, then somebody needs to redirect him to be fired up and focused on the unfinished business of selling the team.

[rottiesworld]

41 minutes ago, Jay said:

Apparently "Arte wants to win" but is unwilling to do what it takes to win.

He doesn’t want to win and has not even done anything to really improve the team. The only team worse is Oakland it is going to be a long season and just hope Moreno gets tired and sell the team.