Angels AGM is Gone

[Inside Pitch]

9 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

the reason the job isn't desirable isn't because the team is bad.  It's because the Angels are unwilling to hand over the keys and give that one person the autonomy to do what the feel needs to be done no matter what that is.  

All the playoff teams have done variations of something similar to get where they are.   The Angels are doing some that even though it's still the cliff's notes version.  

The only way the job becomes more desirable is autonomy.  It's really what any GM worth their salt would want.  

Remember how people believed Dombrowski was a bad fit because he broke teams and some of us argued he was one of the best ever at building them???  Dude didn't see a fall off until his owner got old and wanted to win now, and now he's got Philly looking like world beaters with a solid farm system after the previous regime destroyed the farm and failed to get over .500.

His lone demand everywhere he's been.... Total control.  

[Jeff Fletcher]

16 hours ago, BTH said:

I hope some Angels reporter can get more info on this and provide some context, because this is confusing at the surface.

It should be no more confusing than when Nevin got fired. People lose their jobs when you don’t win. 

[AngelStew43]

Just based on the things that I have read, I felt that it was very odd that Minasian and Tamin had space in the clubhouse.  

I feel like that space is for uniformed field personnel only, manager, players, coaches, and Ippei, in the case of Shohei's translator.  

The GM and his assistant have offices.  They should be conducting all of their business there. 

[Angelsfan1984]

10 hours ago, Angels 1961 said:

I was going to make pasta on Saturday now I have to dump that plan.

Pun intended?

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Remember how people believed Dombrowski was a bad fit because he broke teams and some of us argued he was one of the best ever at building them???  Dude didn't see a fall off until his owner got old and wanted to win now, and now he's got Philly looking like world beaters with a solid farm system after the previous regime destroyed the farm and failed to get over .500.

His lone demand everywhere he's been.... Total control.  

He definitely seems to have a formula for success.  Any of the GM's that the Angels have had might as well.  I don't think we know because things keep getting added to their equations.  A bunch of variables and one very important constant that I like to call the Moreno coefficient.  

[Swordsman78]

1 hour ago, AngelStew43 said:

Just based on the things that I have read, I felt that it was very odd that Minasian and Tamin had space in the clubhouse.  

I feel like that space is for uniformed field personnel only, manager, players, coaches, and Ippei, in the case of Shohei's translator.  

The GM and his assistant have offices.  They should be conducting all of their business there. 

 

Locked On Angels

 

@LockedOnAngels

·

22h

 

Interesting. Like Alden said, Tamin was Perry's right-hand man, mostly known to Angels fans as the keeper of the spreadsheets He was extremely analytical to the detriment of managing a game.

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

12 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

I feel like a big part of the reason Perry still has his job is the sheer lack of continuity there has been at the GM position.  Instead, they're probably going to take away some of of his authority.  The hierarchy of this team has never been overly clear.

I think for successful teams you know with certainty who creates the mission plan for everyone else to execute. 

It just doesn't feel like there's been a clear path since Stoneman left.  Which essentially means that ownership/management hasn't been successful in picking anyone who's clearly in charge of manning the ship. 

I still think it boils down to all of the GM's and managers under Arte's watch being tasked with the impossible.  Or at least the highly improbable. 

Inherited wealth made them successful for awhile but the method is flawed.  It's really worked once (2014) in the last 14 seasons.  It's not really a low point any more but a trough.  Even during some lean times there was at least some ebb and flow where there's be a couple really bad seasons and then show at least a modicum of improvement even if for a short period. 

  

I don't think we can really say that Perry has had much if any autonomy prior to this past season.

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

It should be no more confusing than when Nevin got fired. People lose their jobs when you don’t win. 

Some people obviously have more of a leash than others. It would be interesting to know why it was Tamin and not Wise, or anyone else. 

We obviously don't have your level of access but the perception here is that Tamin is Perry's guy, and one of the last guys Perry would want to let go.

[Angels 1961]

1 hour ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

Pun intended?

Yeah that meat sauce would not be the same

[Angels 1961]

2 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

It should be no more confusing than when Nevin got fired. People lose their jobs when you don’t win. 

Tell that to Baltimore manager

[Angels 1961]

47 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

 

Locked On Angels

 

@LockedOnAngels

·

22h

 

Interesting. Like Alden said, Tamin was Perry's right-hand man, mostly known to Angels fans as the keeper of the spreadsheets He was extremely analytical to the detriment of managing a game.

 

He was Perry's right hand man but was left handed.

[AngelsLakersFan]

If it's true that the organization thinks Tamin was "too analytical" then I think this speaks to yet another issue in the organization.

There is nothing wrong with being "too analytical" the issue comes when this kind of person is given the autonomy to significantly dictate in game tactics. 

I think the bullpen matrix is a good place to look. It seemed like early in the season Nevin's hands were tied by the matrix, which also seemed to be very aggressive with its promotion of rest.

There needed to be some consideration for the realities of the matrix leading to games in which the majority of the bullpen would be "down" due to prior usage. In situations like this the front office (GM) needs to be able to provide the manager with relievers who will be available, or the manager needs to be able to override the matrix.

The way this all played out early in the season felt like a beta test. The analytics all pointed to rest and limiting usage without much consideration for roster limitations. Add in a strategy that promoted strikeouts over contact, thus increasing pitch counts, and you have a recipe for disaster.

[Blarg]

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Add in a strategy that promoted strikeouts over contact, thus increasing pitch counts, and you have a recipe for disaster.

I have no problem with strikeouts over contact but going 0-2 to 3-2 is not accomplishing either goal. That was the pitching downfall, not closing out an at bat when ahead in the count and throwing unhittable pitches to try and bait a swing. That only worked on Angels hitters.

 

[Jeff Fletcher]

4 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Some people obviously have more of a leash than others. It would be interesting to know why it was Tamin and not Wise, or anyone else. 

We obviously don't have your level of access but the perception here is that Tamin is Perry's guy, and one of the last guys Perry would want to let go.

I would not expect decisions on any of the coaches until there’s a new manager. 
 

[Jeff Fletcher]

3 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

If it's true that the organization thinks Tamin was "too analytical" then I think this speaks to yet another issue in the organization.

There is nothing wrong with being "too analytical" the issue comes when this kind of person is given the autonomy to significantly dictate in game tactics. 

I think the bullpen matrix is a good place to look. It seemed like early in the season Nevin's hands were tied by the matrix, which also seemed to be very aggressive with its promotion of rest.

There needed to be some consideration for the realities of the matrix leading to games in which the majority of the bullpen would be "down" due to prior usage. In situations like this the front office (GM) needs to be able to provide the manager with relievers who will be available, or the manager needs to be able to override the matrix.

The way this all played out early in the season felt like a beta test. The analytics all pointed to rest and limiting usage without much consideration for roster limitations. Add in a strategy that promoted strikeouts over contact, thus increasing pitch counts, and you have a recipe for disaster.

The bullpen matrix was so overblown. It was just who had thrown how much in the previous few days. I was doing the same thing on Twitter with my red light/green light. 

[BTH]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I would not expect decisions on any of the coaches until there’s a new manager. 
 

So all the coaches are in limbo until they hire a new manager?

[BTH]

6 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

It should be no more confusing than when Nevin got fired. People lose their jobs when you don’t win. 

Usually it’s not the assistant GM, who is the GM’s right-hand man, who gets axed.

None of Eppler’s AGMs got fired while he was GM.

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 minute ago, BTH said:

So all the coaches are in limbo until they hire a new manager?

I think the question will be which, if any, the new manager wants to keep. It’s not which ones are going to get fired. 
 

When the manager is gone it’s pretty much a foregone conclusion that most, if not all, of the coaches will be gone. 

[Swordsman78]

5 minutes ago, BTH said:

So all the coaches are in limbo until they hire a new manager?

The coaches are most likely looking for other jobs.   They are goners.  The new manager will bring in his own people as a condition of employment 

[Jeff Fletcher]

6 minutes ago, BTH said:

Usually it’s not the assistant GM, who is the GM’s right-hand man, who gets axed.

None of Eppler’s AGMs got fired while he was GM.

Why don’t you just say what it is you suspect and I’ll tell you if I think you’re right. 

[Swordsman78]

IMO Perry's job just got more tenuous. Very unlikely that Perry fired his buddy or that Perry even had any indication Tamin would be fired 

[khouse]

16 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

the entire industry knows otherwise even if those are the words out of Arte's mouth.  They basically put spies in the dugout at the end of the season.  Do you think Finley and Salmon were Perry's choice to do that?  

Minasian has been neutered.  He got Tamin and extra payroll for a year and it was a hot mess.  

And that's the thing.  A couple of mistakes and the whole strategy falls apart yet it's what every GM is tasked with for this org.  Zero margin for error followed by getting your nuts clipped.  

I hate to say it but with Tamin's firing & with no talk (yet) of an extension...it's really looking like Arte is just trying to get Minasian to quit. I mean...if Arte, indeed, held Tamin accountable/fired him for the regression of the pitching staff then how highly do you think he regards the guy who backed/enabled him?

[BTH]

31 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Why don’t you just say what it is you suspect and I’ll tell you if I think you’re right. 

I think that Arte was responsible for Tamin leaving, and it wasn’t just Perry deciding that as he did an autopsy.

[BTH]

16 minutes ago, khouse said:

I hate to say it but with Tamin's firing & with no talk (yet) of an extension...it's really looking like Arte is just trying to get Minasian to quit. I mean...if Arte, indeed, held Tamin accountable/fired him for the regression of the pitching staff then how highly do you think he regards the guy who backed/enabled him?

Is that really a better situation for Arte?

IMO, he comes off looking worse if Perry resigns than if he fires Perry.

[BTH]

31 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

IMO Perry's job just got more tenuous. Very unlikely that Perry fired his buddy 

For once, we agree.