Angels AGM is Gone

[Jeff Fletcher]

5 minutes ago, BTH said:

I think that Arte was responsible for Tamin leaving, and it wasn’t just Perry deciding that as he did an autopsy.

I think you’re probably right. 
 

I don’t think that should surprise anyone after Nevin got fired. That was obviously Arte too. 

[BTH]

19 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I think you’re probably right. 
 

I don’t think that should surprise anyone after Nevin got fired. That was obviously Arte too. 

Was it entirely Arte? Given that Nevin was hired by Maddon, I can see reasons for Perry also wanting to make a change.

[Jeff Fletcher]

9 minutes ago, BTH said:

Was it entirely Arte? Given that Nevin was hired by Maddon, I can see reasons for Perry also wanting to make a change.

I think it was all Arte 

[Swordsman78]

35 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I
 

I don’t think that should surprise anyone after Nevin got fired. That was obviously Arte too. 

Actually is surprised a few of us.  Making a change just for the sake of making a change can be shortsighted, show weakness.
 

No one put the finger on Nevin.   More so the SP regression and injuries.  
 

looking forward to see who the poverty franchise chooses as the panacea. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Swordsman78

[Docwaukee]

5 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

If it's true that the organization thinks Tamin was "too analytical" then I think this speaks to yet another issue in the organization.

There is nothing wrong with being "too analytical" the issue comes when this kind of person is given the autonomy to significantly dictate in game tactics. 

I think the bullpen matrix is a good place to look. It seemed like early in the season Nevin's hands were tied by the matrix, which also seemed to be very aggressive with its promotion of rest.

There needed to be some consideration for the realities of the matrix leading to games in which the majority of the bullpen would be "down" due to prior usage. In situations like this the front office (GM) needs to be able to provide the manager with relievers who will be available, or the manager needs to be able to override the matrix.

The way this all played out early in the season felt like a beta test. The analytics all pointed to rest and limiting usage without much consideration for roster limitations. Add in a strategy that promoted strikeouts over contact, thus increasing pitch counts, and you have a recipe for disaster.

people forget about the human element of the game.  The mental side isn't considered as often as it should be by fans.  And I'm not just talking about some bullpen matrix.   If you're a GM and your process or formula keeps getting tweaked or there is discord as it's getting passed down then the belief in whether it will work gets watered down at every level.  

If the manager is selling anything to the players like 'Well, they want us to try this but I'm not convinced it's gonna work so just give it your best shot' then it's not gonna work.  If you have a manager that completely understands the how and why he's being asked to do something it has a much greater chance to be executed properly.  

You don't send legacy Angels into the dugout to 'observe' when there is harmony between the front office, manager, coaches, and players.  

And this is one of the main things I have been mentioning for the last several years.  A uniform philosophy where everyone understands and is on the same page.  Thoughtful discourse is fine but a fundamental lack of trust is not.  If everyone is half in-half out between the ears then you're never going to succeed.  

My best example is when I go line up a putt.  If I don't trust my process and end up questioning my line as I walk up to hit the ball, I'm never going to make it.  

You can get away with small mistakes or errors if everyone is generally supportive of the path they're on as long as it makes sense in some way shape or form to everyone on it.  

Managers are actually sales managers.  They need to not only believe in the product they're selling but they need to convince their sales force as to how they're selling it.  

[Swordsman78]

13 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

people forget about the human element of the game.  The mental side isn't considered as often as it should be by fans.  And I'm not just talking about some bullpen matrix.   If you're a GM and your process or formula keeps getting tweaked or there is discord as it's getting passed down then the belief in whether it will work gets watered down at every level.  

If the manager is selling anything to the players like 'Well, they want us to try this but I'm not convinced it's gonna work so just give it your best shot' then it's not gonna work.  If you have a manager that completely understands the how and why he's being asked to do something it has a much greater chance to be executed properly.  

You don't send legacy Angels into the dugout to 'observe' when there is harmony between the front office, manager, coaches, and players.  

And this is one of the main things I have been mentioning for the last several years.  A uniform philosophy where everyone understands and is on the same page.  Thoughtful discourse is fine but a fundamental lack of trust is not.  If everyone is half in-half out between the ears then you're never going to succeed.  

My best example is when I go line up a putt.  If I don't trust my process and end up questioning my line as I walk up to hit the ball, I'm never going to make it.  

You can get away with small mistakes or errors if everyone is generally supportive of the path they're on as long as it makes sense in some way shape or form to everyone on it.  

Managers are actually sales managers.  They need to not only believe in the product they're selling but they need to convince their sales force as to how they're selling it.  

Just described the issues with Maddon.  

[Docwaukee]

1 minute ago, Swordsman78 said:

Just described the issues with Maddon.  

It's been an issue for every Manager/GM relationship this club has had for nearly two decades.  

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

The bullpen matrix was so overblown. It was just who had thrown how much in the previous few days. I was doing the same thing on Twitter with my red light/green light. 

Well if that's the case it's certainly interesting to reevaluate Nevin's bullpen management earlier in the season. The day he had Jaime Barria closing out a game because of too many guys being "down" obviously jumps out.

If the matrix was just a simple guide then Nevin's use of it was far more of a problem then Tamin. Additionally, hard to imagine a simple back of the envelope cheat sheet for bullpen usage drawing the ire of so many.

[BTH]

24 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

If the matrix was just a simple guide then Nevin's use of it was far more of a problem then Tamin. Additionally, hard to imagine a simple back of the envelope cheat sheet for bullpen usage drawing the ire of so many.

That’s why I became upset with Nevin’s in-game decisions.

He didn’t manage the bullpen properly. And the better you manage it, the more guys you end up having available.

Using Estevez up 4 made him unavailable in other games.

[Swordsman78]

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Well if that's the case it's certainly interesting to reevaluate Nevin's bullpen management earlier in the season. The day he had Jaime Barria closing out a game because of too many guys being "down" obviously jumps out.

If the matrix was just a simple guide then Nevin's use of it was far more of a problem then Tamin. Additionally, hard to imagine a simple back of the envelope cheat sheet for bullpen usage drawing the ire of so many.

The fact that Tamlin got fired should tell you everything you need to know about who was primarily controlling BP mgmt. 

[Swordsman78]

37 minutes ago, BTH said:

That’s why I became upset with Nevin’s in-game decisions.

He didn’t manage the bullpen properly. And the better you manage it, the more guys you end up having available.

Using Estevez up 4 made him unavailable in other games.

Between Tamlin's data re availability, and SP not being able to go 5 or 6 there was not a lot of options to work with.

[Stradling]

57 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

The fact that Tamlin got fired should tell you everything you need to know about who was primarily controlling BP mgmt. 

yes Nevin, who was fired. Tamlin parted ways mutually. 

[BTH]

59 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

Between Tamlin's data re availability, and SP not being able to go 5 or 6 there was not a lot of options to work with.

Even though he didn’t have the best group, he still didn’t get the best he could’ve out of them.

Overusing Bachman to the point of injury risk and Wantz throwing 40+ pitches are two examples of not putting his pitchers into positions to succeed.

[Blarg]

52 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

The fact that Tamlin got fired should tell you everything you need to know about who was primarily controlling BP mgmt. 

You are working so hard to try and absolve Nevin of any culpability in the teams performance. 

 

[Swordsman78]

9 minutes ago, Blarg said:

You are working so hard to try and absolve Nevin of any culpability in the teams performance. 

 

Show me anyone connected to the club that said it was his fault.  I will refer you to the press conference to cite the contrary.

You are the only one trying to place blame.  

[T.G.]

10 minutes ago, Blarg said:

You are working so hard to try and absolve Nevin of any culpability in the teams performance. 

 

He went from being sure Nevin was being retained to full deflect and defense mode on Nevin's behalf.

[Swordsman78]

14 minutes ago, BTH said:

Even though he didn’t have the best group, he still didn’t get the best he could’ve out of them.

Overusing Bachman to the point of injury risk and Wantz throwing 40+ pitches are two examples of not putting his pitchers into positions to succeed.

Ok you cited a couple of so - so minor examples that you could pin on any manager.   As I pointed out before, there were also just as many decisions that did work out and resulted in wins.

[T.G.]

1 minute ago, Swordsman78 said:

Show me anyone connected to the club that said it was his fault.  

Again... few, if any managers are blamed publicly. They just get fired.

[Swordsman78]

1 minute ago, T.G. said:

He went from being sure Nevin was being retained to full deflect and defense mode on Nevin's behalf.

The Angels have no plan.  This was a knee jerk reaction to do "something".    Then they fire the real culprit "Tamlin".

[T.G.]

1 minute ago, Swordsman78 said:

Then they fire the real culprit "Tamlin".

Show me where they placed blame in Tamlin.

[Swordsman78]

1 minute ago, T.G. said:

Again... few, if any managers are blamed publicly. They just get fired.

You can't "fire" someone who doesn't have a contract.   He fulfilled his contract and got the best possible results based on the lack of resources.

[T.G.]

 

3 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

You can't "fire" someone who doesn't have a contract.   He fulfilled his contract and got the best possible results based on the lack of resources.

They declined his option for 2024. In other words, he was FIRED.

[Blarg]

4 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

Show me anyone connected to the club that said it was his fault.  I will refer you to the press conference to cite the contrary.

You are the only one trying to place blame.  

He wasn't released because they felt he was a value to the team. You are trying to defend someone just because the front office refused to out why they let him go. They could have destroyed any future he had by listing all of his inadequacies but instead took the high road. 

You were wrong about Nevin's value as a manager all season. You are still wrong and the proof is probably going to be him and Maddon playing canasta together for the next 20 years of retirement. 

[Swordsman78]

5 minutes ago, T.G. said:

Show me where they placed blame in Tamlin.

When focusing on the bullpen in particular, Tamin was the one who came up with which relievers would be available in a certain game and for how long. Essentially Tamin used the analytics to figure that stuff out, and then he'd relay the information to Minasian who'd tell Maddon mid-game. Maddon said he couldn't use certain relievers that he wanted to in the midst of the Angels 14-game losing streak (he was fired after 12).

I'm not here to argue whether the Angels are right or wrong in doing what many other teams do with having their GM form a game script for the manager to follow, but Tamin being a huge part of that and let go unexpectedly is the latest sign that Minasian's job security is non-existent.

Arte Moreno is sending a clear message here to Minasian that he has to figure something out that works. Tamin's assistance didn't work. If Minasian doesn't come up with that winning formula chances are he will be let go. He is doing this job on a one-year contract now.

[T.G.]

Quoting Maddon is not the Angels blaming Tamlin. 

That's rich.