From 1-30, MLB Pipeline ranks each club's farm system

[NrM]

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-pipeline-2023-midseason-system-rankings

Angels ranked 28th and that's only because Logan O'hoppe still qualifies. 

 

 

 

[Second Base]

At this point in the season, without any shot at the playoffs, I think if keep O'Hoppe down and "rehabbing" so that he still qualifies as a rookie next year. If he wins ROY, the Angels get another draft pick after the first round, which is tremendously valuable for a farm system this poor. 

[Angel Oracle]

5 minutes ago, Second Base said:

At this point in the season, without any shot at the playoffs, I think if keep O'Hoppe down and "rehabbing" so that he still qualifies as a rookie next year. If he wins ROY, the Angels get another draft pick after the first round, which is tremendously valuable for a farm system this poor. 

Will lose rookie status for 2024 if either on the MLB roster for 15 more days or has 63 more MLB at bats.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Angel Oracle

[Slegnaac]

28 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Will lose rookie status for 2024 if either on the MLB roster for 15 more days or has 63 more MLB at bats.

Rats

[tomsred]

In my opinion, O'Hoppe not getting valuable MLB experience because he wants to be the ROY in 2024 is stupid.  The object of this game is for the team to win, not to collect awards for individual play.  That's the way we should be looking at Ohtani's situation as well.  He's already said that is his No. 1 priority.  If a player achieves greatness based on their individual performance that's wonderful (but secondary), but that's not the ultimate goal of this game.  I wouldn't want players who think otherwise.  All teams are probably infected with players who concentrate too much on personal accomplishments.  Think about it, maybe that's why the Angels aren't winning.  Doing the little things that produce wins are many times not glamorous, but they add up to success by winning when done right.

 

In this situation, I think O'Hoppe getting MLB experience in September is more important than ROY in 2024.

 

 

[CaliAngel]

^This season is down the shitter, let the kid have his breakout in 2024 and get a trophy while he's at it.

It's not going to take anything away from the team this year, and it will only help next year.

[Inside Pitch]

4 hours ago, tomsred said:

In my opinion, O'Hoppe not getting valuable MLB experience because he wants to be the ROY in 2024 is stupid.  

Then there's this.

PROSPECT PROMOTION INCENTIVE

A team is eligible for Prospect Promotion Incentive (PPI) draft picks if a rookie-eligible player with 60 days or fewer of major league service who is included on a preseason top 100 prospect list by two or more of Baseball America, ESPN.com or MLB.com is promoted and finishes high in award voting in any year before he is eligible for arbitration. The team would get an amateur draft pick for a Rookie of the Year or a top three in MVP or Cy Young, and an international selection if second or third in Rookie of the Year, or fourth or fifth in Cy Young. A team can gain at most one PPI pick in the amateur draft and three total PPI picks for any individual prospect in his career.

 

[Dtwncbad]

Wow you can clearly see how the Angels at the trade deadline went “all-in” and recklessly mortgaged the future.

[jsnpritchett]

12 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Wow you can clearly see how the Angels at the trade deadline went “all-in” and recklessly mortgaged the future.

Both things can be true: they have a weak farm system overall and, in the opinion of some people, they traded away too many controllable assets for rental players that weren't likely to have a big impact on their playoff chances.  Not sure why that's hard to grasp. The moves they made likely did negatively impact the franchise moving forward, even if only from a system depth standpoint.

[Jeff Fletcher]

19 hours ago, Second Base said:

At this point in the season, without any shot at the playoffs, I think if keep O'Hoppe down and "rehabbing" so that he still qualifies as a rookie next year. If he wins ROY, the Angels get another draft pick after the first round, which is tremendously valuable for a farm system this poor. 

You’d have to be pretty certain he would win ROY for this be even remotely worth him missing out on the experience of playing a month of major league games. 

[Vladdy Issues]

3 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Then there's this.

PROSPECT PROMOTION INCENTIVE

A team is eligible for Prospect Promotion Incentive (PPI) draft picks if a rookie-eligible player with 60 days or fewer of major league service who is included on a preseason top 100 prospect list by two or more of Baseball America, ESPN.com or MLB.com is promoted and finishes high in award voting in any year before he is eligible for arbitration. The team would get an amateur draft pick for a Rookie of the Year or a top three in MVP or Cy Young, and an international selection if second or third in Rookie of the Year, or fourth or fifth in Cy Young. A team can gain at most one PPI pick in the amateur draft and three total PPI picks for any individual prospect in his career.

 

NO WAY... I like the non-nuanced, emotionally meaningless "we play to win the game" / moral victory way of thinking over being smart

Leveraging out the system to the rules of the system means nothing

[Dtwncbad]

13 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

Both things can be true: they have a weak farm system overall and, in the opinion of some people, they traded away too many controllable assets for rental players that weren't likely to have a big impact on their playoff chances.  Not sure why that's hard to grasp. The moves they made likely did negatively impact the franchise moving forward, even if only from a system depth standpoint.

The point is people act like the Angels gutted the farm and wrecked their future.

The farm was weak and it is still weak.  The future was not materially impacted.

So it wasn’t reckless to make a couple of moves to try to compete this year.

 

[Vladdy Issues]

3 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

You’d have to be pretty certain he would win ROY for this be even remotely worth him missing out on the experience of playing a month of major league games. 

okay... give him enough playing time / at bats to keep his rookie status eligible for next year and still have a chance at anything happening (becoming ROY) next year.

[Dtwncbad]

5 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

You’d have to be pretty certain he would win ROY for this be even remotely worth him missing out on the experience of playing a month of major league games. 

You would also have to care about the ROY award.  I question if a ROY award really does anything for a team at all.

[arch stanton]

2 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

You would also have to care about the ROY award.  I question if a ROY award really does anything for a team at all.

PROSPECT PROMOTION INCENTIVE

A team is eligible for Prospect Promotion Incentive (PPI) draft picks if a rookie-eligible player with 60 days or fewer of major league service who is included on a preseason top 100 prospect list by two or more of Baseball America, ESPN.com or MLB.com is promoted and finishes high in award voting in any year before he is eligible for arbitration. The team would get an amateur draft pick for a Rookie of the Year or a top three in MVP or Cy Young, and an international selection if second or third in Rookie of the Year, or fourth or fifth in Cy Young. A team can gain at most one PPI pick in the amateur draft and three total PPI picks for any individual prospect in his career.

[jsnpritchett]

16 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

The point is people act like the Angels gutted the farm and wrecked their future.

The farm was weak and it is still weak.  The future was not materially impacted.

So it wasn’t reckless to make a couple of moves to try to compete this year.

 

We'll just disagree, then.  I think the future was materially impacted, because the trades that were made this year lessen prospect capital to use in trades in '24 and beyond and they lessened the organizational depth.  I don't know how you can argue with that, really.  None of the players the Angels traded for are controllable beyond this year and they're not going to help the Angels make the playoffs.  Given those two facts, trading some of your "top" prospects (even if they're not comparable to better teams' top prospects) does seem a bit reckless.

Edited August 17, 2023 by jsnpritchett

[Jeff Fletcher]

12 minutes ago, Jimmy Z said:

okay... give him enough playing time / at bats to keep his rookie status eligible for next year and still have a chance at anything happening (becoming ROY) next year.

The whole reason the incentive exists is to prevent teams from manipulating service time. I’m the sure the union would have a fit if the Angels did this, let alone the message it would send to every other player, in and out of the organization.  
 

You guys are overthinking it. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 minute ago, jsnpritchett said:

We'll just disagree, then.  I think the future was materially impacted, because the trades that were made this year lessen prospect capital to use in trades in '24 and beyond and they lessened the organizational depth.  I don't know how you can argue that, really.  None of the players the Angels traded for are controllable beyond this year and they're not going to help the Angels make the playoffs.  Given those two facts, trading some of your "top" prospects (even if they're not comparable to better teams' top prospects) does seem a bit reckless.

It’s pretty easy to replace the caliber of prospects the Angels traded. Even in the case of Quero, I’ve heard the Angels didn’t believe he could stick at catcher and didn’t have the bat to play 1B.

Time will tell. 

[jsnpritchett]

Just now, Jeff Fletcher said:

It’s pretty easy to replace the caliber of prospects the Angels traded. Even in the case of Quero, I’ve heard the Angels didn’t believe he could stick at catcher and didn’t have the bat to play 1B.

Time will tell. 

Still, the fact is, they have fewer good (or even marginal) prospects than they did before and the return they got for them was garbage.  Again, I'm not arguing that any one of the guys they traded (or any combo) is a devastating loss.  It's the volume of guys they traded for essentially no return.  There is no way to reasonably argue that their system isn't worse off than it was before.

 

[Dtwncbad]

1 minute ago, jsnpritchett said:

There is no way to reasonably argue that their system isn't worse off than it was before.

Barely.  I would say generally it’s the same as it was.

[T.G.]

I don't have a problem with what Minasian did at the deadline.  He took a shot.  It looks like it's not going to work out.  That's life.  That's baseball. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 hour ago, jsnpritchett said:

Still, the fact is, they have fewer good (or even marginal) prospects than they did before and the return they got for them was garbage.  Again, I'm not arguing that any one of the guys they traded (or any combo) is a devastating loss.  It's the volume of guys they traded for essentially no return.  There is no way to reasonably argue that their system isn't worse off than it was before.

 

That’s where you lost me. 
 

You really didn’t think that López is better than Webb? Or that Grichuk is better than Jordyn Adams? Or that Cron is better than Trey Cabbage? Or that Giolito is better than whoever happens to be the worst starter in a given week? Or that Leone is better than Zack Weiss?

[LaPalma]

This was the year to try, despite the long odds.  It didn’t work, so focus on re-signing Ohtani.  If that fails, work on rebuilding and drafting well.  Once Rendon is off the books you can start to compete.  There is no magic fix, we need to take our time instead of grasping at straws year after year.

[jsnpritchett]

2 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

That’s where you lost me. 
 

You really didn’t think that López is better than Webb? Or that Grichuk is better than Jordyn Adams? Or that Cron is better than Trey Cabbage? Or that Giolito is better than whoever happens to be the worst starter in a given week? Or that Leone is better than Zack Weiss?

The 7 guys they have traded for since June collectively have negative WAR since they got here.  Even if they had played better, it would still be highly unlikely that the Angels would make the playoffs.  My point since the very first trade has been that marginal upgrades aren't going to be enough to get them over the hump. So in objective terms is Grichuk better than Adams? Maybe, but not enough to make a meaningful difference. Same for Leone. He's just a guy.  Giolito obviously had the most upside and potential impact of anyone they traded for, but he's also clearly not the guy he was a couple years ago. 

So you trade for a bunch of marginal upgrades and then most of them don't contribute much. It's not surprising. 

[NrM]

29 minutes ago, LaPalma said:

This was the year to try, despite the long odds.  It didn’t work, so focus on re-signing Ohtani.  If that fails, work on rebuilding and drafting well.  Once Rendon is off the books you can start to compete.  There is no magic fix, we need to take our time instead of grasping at straws year after year.

Arte would never be willing to rebuild. He had many opportunities to go that route in the past. I don't think he cares about putting a winning competitive team on the field. He just wants to turn a profit. Rebuilding for 2-3 years would hinder that.