How much blame or success can we put on hitting and pitching coaches for player performance?

[Stradling]

4 hours ago, stormngt said:

Not to mention Trouts two worst slumps and Ward falling off the cliff.

Ward believes his drop off is related to the collision with the wall. 

[Blarg]

In the Scioscia years he would pull guys that were struggling and give them a couple days off to reset. He had the roster depth to do that. 

You pull Walsh and you look at the bench and what .205 hitter do you pick? It's garbage on the bench greater than the garbage that Walsh is doing at the plate?

Not much time off for mental resets when there are really no better roster solutions. So part of it is coaching, the other is simply grinding all of the time. 

I'm still in favor of flushing the entire dugout and starting over. I don't think this crew is effective, especially as lame ducks of another managers choice. 

[Stradling]

24 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

May just be as as simple as the minor league coach has video of his minor league performances while the MLB team may stick to the MLB stuff.  

Also who gets more attention the rookie pitcher at the major league level or the first round pick at the minor league level?  

[Jay]

How great would it be if you could just replace a few coaches and the whole team instantly becomes better?

 

[UndertheHalo]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

May just be as as simple as the minor league coach has video of his minor league performances while the MLB team may stick to the MLB stuff.  

Why aren’t there people who evaluate all of the players in the organization ? I mean especially their most important guys.  

Edited August 16, 2022 by UndertheHalo

[Angelsjunky]

7 hours ago, Trendon said:

You don’t praise someone who is doing a bad job.

Evidently you don't follow politics.

[BTH]

As an aside...

We can debate whether or not it's deserved, but I'd be shocked if the Angels retain more than a small percentage of their coaching staff next season.

They fired Joe Maddon mid-season, and then they're just gonna run it back with the same coaches that were with  Maddon? I doubt it.

[Angelsjunky]

The sad thing about Walsh is that you can look for signs of his decline going back over a year. As IP said, he might just be a guy who doesn't have the skills or smarts to adjust as pitchers have figured out how to get him out. But I kind of think we already went through that over a year ago, when he came down to earth from destroying the ball from late 2020 through early 2021. You can see this in several phases of the last few seasons:

2020 call-up to May 26, 2021: .311/.363/.607, 20 HR, 295 PA

May 27 - end of 2021: .257/.319/.475, 18 HR, 398 PA

2022, through June 22: .265/.312/.486, 13 HR, 266 PA

June 23 - present: .152/.206/.214, 1 HR, 155 PA

Meaning, he established a pretty consistent level from the end of May in 2021 through June of this year, and only really collapsed over the last couple months.

One would think the "real" Walsh is the guy who hit around .260/.315/.480 for about 650 PA. Certainly the elite guy of 2020 to early 2021 is not the real Walsh, but it is hard imagining that the guy from the last 155 PA is the real Walsh. 

[Stradling]

20 minutes ago, Trendon said:

As an aside...

We can debate whether or not it's deserved, but I'd be shocked if the Angels retain more than a small percentage of their coaching staff next season.

They fired Joe Maddon mid-season, and then they're just gonna run it back with the same coaches that were with  Maddon? I doubt it.

Of course most are gone. The new manager will bring in his own guys or at the very least will approve of his guys. 

[T.G.]

21 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Of course most are gone. The new manager will bring in his own guys or at the very least will approve of his guys. 

Will he? Seems like the front office is constructing coaching staffs now. Montgomery was a Minasian hire,  wasn't he?

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, T.G. said:

Will he? Seems like the front office is constructing coaching staffs now. Montgomery was a Minasian hire,  wasn't he?

Minasian put him in the dugout from the front office. 

[T.G.]

Just now, Stradling said:

Minasian put him in the dugout from the front office. 

Semantics... my point was that Montgomery was a Minasian decision.  

[Docwaukee]

Is this just a general question or are we trying to figure out why the halos have failed this year and whether that's related to coaching?

Because if it's the latter, it might be the wrong question to ask in an attempt to solve the problem at hand.  

In general, I think coaching at the major league level is of minimal impact although it can be significant on a specific basis.  Has the coaching staff been instrumental in helping Luis Rengifo?  Have they been instrumental in breaking Jared Walsh?  And that's this year?  Why couldn't the same coaches fix Luis last year?  How could these same coaches been so helpful to Walsh in 2020 and early 2021 but not now?  Why is Stassi broken at the plate now when they fixed him last year and the year before?  Why are they making him have a horribly low LD rate and a very high GB rate?  How did they fix Taylor Ward and turn him into Ted Williams for the first 50 games of this year and then turn him into Juan Rivera for the rest?  

The root cause of the failure of the Angels offense is injuries and a lack of talent.  BUT... If I'm looking for reasons why guys like Walsh, Stassi, Marsh, Adell, and even Ohtani haven't performed as well as expected across the board then I don't think I'm gonna blame the coaches.  Almost everyone is failing relative to what we'd expect.  

To me, and perhaps this is just my opinion, but I think this is somehow data driven.  Poor analytics would be the first place I'd look as to why so many of these guys are capable of pulling out of a free fall when the coaching staff seemed to help them in the past.  The approach seems broken for so much of this offense.  They walk back to the dugout confused looking so often.  Like they didn't expect the pitcher to approach them the way they did.  Like they didn't expect to see the pitches they did in the order they saw them.  

So are we blaming Jeremy Reed or Paul Sorrento for that?  I don't know and I really don't think so.  It's kinda like defense from last year?  Who was to blame for poor positioning?  

Whose the problem with what seems to be a poor approach by so many hitters?  Even the shitty guys got worse.  Pretty much across the board.  I would argue that the improvements from Ward and Rengifo are more about those guys coming into their own as opposed to anything that the staff did make that happen.  

How can the coaching staff go from helping a bunch of guys over the previous couple years to helping no one this year?  That doesn't make sense to me.  

[Angelsjunky]

While there's definitely a team-wide suckage going on, to some extent we have to look at players individually.

Marsh and Adell are in their own category. Their problems seem to be developmental: Their minor league success didn't translate to the majors, which implies that they were rushed and/or the org didn't address major deficiencies that have been exploited by major league pitchers (and let's not even touch Adell's defense).

Several of us have been waiting for this breakout from Rengifo for a few years. In truth, he just seems to be taking a step forward from what he did in 2019. Not sure why he sucked so badly in 2020-21, but it might partially be because he wasn't given consistent playing time. In fact, he's doing what he's doing now because of injuries and the Angels tried everyone else. Rengifo was the last man standing, and given playing time, started hitting.

Stassi and Walsh seem to be in a similar category. I don't think it is poor coaching, but a combination of just having down years, the "suck virus" that everyone caught, and perhaps pitchers adjusting. They're both candidates for positive regression next year.

As for Ward, while I'm not sure I 100% agree with him that his problems are all due to his injury, I also don't think a player hits like he did for 150+ PA and some of it not be legit. I think he's going to split the difference next year, and be very good, maybe something like .290/.370/.520.

Finally, Fletcher. His performance since coming back implies that there's something to the theory that he's been nursing a nagging injury for over a year, and never felt comfortable at the plate. While it is a small sample size, his line this year is very similar to his earlier (pretty good) performance, and I think we'll see the "real Fletcher" back next year.

I think the biggest problem the Angels face offensively is how to keep Trout and Rendon healthy. If they don't get 250 games out of these two next year, we're going to be up shit's creek again.

[Rollinghard]

There should not be a hitting philosophy. A hitting strategy for a given game/pitcher would be a much better approach. I would not want anybody in the box thinking about getting deeper in the count. See the ball, hit the ball. They should hire this young lady.

sue enquist hitting philosophy mental - Search (bing.com)   

Edited August 16, 2022 by Rollinghard
spelling

[eligrba]

Maybe its the organizational infrastructure, or lack there of that is contributing to the problems?

It only makes sense that it requires an organizational effort to be this bad for this long.  We can blame shitty players, but if shitty players are the most consistent part of the roster over the last 8 years, then I think you need to look at the organization.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

5 hours ago, Rollinghard said:

There should not be a hitting philosophy. A hitting strategy for a given game/pitcher would be a much better approach. I would not want anybody in the box thinking about getting deeper in the count. See the ball, hit the ball. They should hire this young lady.

sue enquist hitting philosophy mental - Search (bing.com)   

That's usually, what you do when you are in a slump instead of playing with your stance, hands, or the mental side of the game. You break it down to the simplest state see Fastball (hit Fastball) no matter the count. 

That brings you back to Rengifo. Historically, he has never been a very patient hitter (by the games I watched) so he continues to be aggressive early in the count and at bat. Which is why he has been having pretty good at bats. Early on, against the fastball.

Ward early on opponents were trying to get him to swing early out of the zone to put him behind. Which if the approach was to take a few to get into a better hitting count. Then he was reacting to the fastball as the pitchers had gotten down in the count early with the breaking stuff and off-speed down and away. 

Walsh from what I've seen this year has been guessing way too much and mixed with him taking more pitches have led to him swinging at more pitches out of the zone and using more upper body and reaching. His balance seems all off. When he does sit back he hits the ball pretty well. However, that has been few and far between as he has been either 0-1 or 1-2 in most at bats that I've seen. Even if you are to take the outside pitch your balance should still be over your core. When he has stepped to take the outside pitch he drops his strike zone and is out front which also allows him to get rung up on the pitch down and away.. 

Even Ohtani has at bats where his butt will fly one way while his hands are going another. Once your lower half has committed it is next to impossible for the hands to stay back and react. That's when he rolls over and hits the weak ground ball into the shift. As his hands are trying to catch up to his lower half that has already committed and pulled out.. That's when he is guessing on the pitch and location.

I haven't been to the stadium since May have they done anything with the hitting background or placed something in Centerfield? Could be an issue? But, they haven't been great away from home either which leads me to more about Philosophy and Strategy it's almost like if a pitcher comes in and changes a sequence or adjust his tendencies they are lost. ***Which that is an issue also*** as you have a bunch of guess hitters.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

17 hours ago, ThisismineScios said:

I think this was the philosophy. Ward and Walsh expressed some frustration about taking too many pitches--fastballs ("heaters") especially--in the zone. It seems they were being coached to work the count. Maybe this works for Trout and Rendon, but not everyone can handle that well. And teams adjust, and you have to adjust as well. 

Trout and Rendon have the ability to adjust their swings and protect and not chase.

[Torridd]

23 hours ago, Chuckster70 said:

There seems to be a contingent of Angels fans online that squarely put the blame on the hitting coach for the demise of Walsh, Stassi and Marsh this season, and point to the pitching coach in AAA of being the one who turned Detmers around, not Wise. There's other BS on Twitter as well, but they're pointing to the coaches as the culprit to poor performances by our players this year... completely disregard the successes from others (Ward, Rengifo, our entire pitching staff). 

What say you?

 

I don't put it squarely on the coaches, but I'm concerned what happened with Walsh.

[ten ocho recon scout]

23 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

I feel like it’s their job tho.  The organization shouldn’t be so atomized.  They should all exist to make the Angels win. 

I agree. Just wanted to make a dumb joke about nobody watching the games right now.

[ten ocho recon scout]

I think good coaching is gold. 

That said, it also comes down to the blob of clay in front of them. First, does that person listen to anyone?

More importantly, in baseball, do they possess the minimum fundamentals? Can they recognize pitches? Can they adjust?

In any sport, you can have a million people giving you great advice. If you're not good enough to apply it, it doesn't matter a whole bunch.

[79CAAman]

Coaching at the major league level shouldn't even be a point of discussion among the fanbase during the season.  If it is, it's because your team is sucking donkey-balls.  I'm pretty certain the fanbase for both New York teams or the Houston team aren't bringing up the coaching.  My personal concern, this entire season, has been this team's ability to comfortably lead the major leagues in batting strikeouts.  Comfortably.  Can't really get on base or move a run over with a strikeout.  How is this not addressed during the season???  This organization fires it's manager during the season, trades one of it's most promising (at one point) young players, yet the hitting coach is safe?  

[tomsred]

21 hours ago, Stradling said:

Ward believes his drop off is related to the collision with the wall. 

.....and some of Trout's slump is related to his back, he even said he tried to play through some of it. 

[tomsred]

4 hours ago, Torridd said:

I don't put it squarely on the coaches, but I'm concerned what happened with Walsh.

I think he has the Cody Bellinger disease.  Take a look at Cody's numbers some time, from hitting 47 home runs and a .305 batting average in 2019, he now is a .200 batting average player with occasional home runs similar to Walsh.  It was pretty dramatic for him, and maybe for Walsh as well.  I think it could very well just come down to confidence that you can produce at a high level for long periods.

[Just Sayin]

Orioles have the lowest payroll in the American League....(possibly the majors as well?) and are vying for a wild card spot.

That, to me is exciting.  
 

Where was Baltimore predicted to finish in their division?  The season is far from over, but that team isn’t backing down to anybody.

Good things happen with a tight-knit group.  But were they already “tight-knit” when they were assembled as a team?  Or did the coaching staff create the appropriate environment?  
 

With all the egos a coaching staff must deal with at that level, I like to think environment plays as big a factor as anything else.  When do you pat ‘em on the back?  Or when do you give them a kick in the ass?

It all starts at the top.  
 

Some people like to call it “culture”....

Whatever.  It’s up to the coaches to create that environment based on their personnel.  It’s up to the players to buy in. 
 

Class is in session in Baltimore.  Lowest payroll.  That guy has ‘em playing some ball!!!!
 

A manager or coach needs to be able to look himself in the eye when the season ends and be honest and ask himself “did I honestly get more out of this ballclub than was expected?”

You either did or you didn’t.  Nobody cares who got injured or who got traded before the deadline.  You either did or you didn’t.

It goes to show that the star-studded lineups aren’t always the path.  You think the O’s are all geared-up in the clubhouse right now getting ready for whoever they’re playing tonight?

HELL yes they are.  They’re talking about it.  They’re loving every minute of this.  Have we got that going on in our clubhouse?