OC Register: Alexander: Arte Moreno is definitely not the people’s choice

[cals]

9 minutes ago, Trendon said:

Good to see the newspaper outlets begin to call out Arte Moreno’s ineptitude.

The LA Times’ Helene Elliott wrote something similar: 

But we still need the beat reporters that cover the team to call Arte out in articles (ie Fletcher and Blum)

 

But she’s wrong.  Frankly I think signing Ohtani will handcuff whatever GM is trying to deal with this dumpster fire.  And THAT’S what she should be complaining regarding Morono about (that was for AO).  

Not understanding that trading him could have massive, positive implications is kind of disturbing considering it’s coming from a professional sports writer (even if it’s one who cries for unknown reasons and when you ask what’s wrong you’re told ‘nothing’ and then you’re yelled at 6 months later for not knowing).

[cals]

56 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I think arte is banking on that.

"We scored 3 runs. That's like 6 in today's market, isn't it?"

“That’s like 30 runs in Mexico.”

[cals]

56 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

The ace pitching is really valuable though. He should be paid as an elite pitcher. Any more than that and it’s probably an over pay.

If he plays like he’s playing this year then yes.  

If he ever has an offensive year like last and a pitching year like this (plus run support)?  Oh my.

[beatlesrule]

No mention of Pujols.

Why all the hysterics about potentially trading Ohtani? One of Arte's main obsessions is signing superstars. Ohtani is just that so I don't think he will be traded and Moreno will try to keep him. Like it's already been stated though, we don't know what Ohtani is thinking. My response to the rest of the stuff is "duh."

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 minute ago, cals said:

If he plays like he’s playing this year then yes.  

If he ever has an offensive year like last and a pitching year like this (plus run support)?  Oh my.

You can’t really pay him like that though.  5 years with the Angels and he’s never truly put both skills together at elite levels at the same time.

[BTH]

19 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Why?  They are sports reporters.  These guys aren’t investigative reporters.  They aren’t the voice of the fan. 

Arte Moreno deserves blame, so I’m encouraged to see blame rightfully directed at him.

It may be meaningless, but it’s better than him being ignored.

[beatlesrule]

1 minute ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

You can’t really pay him like that though.  5 years with the Angels and he’s never truly put both skills together at elite levels at the same time.

I have no idea how much longer Ohtani can hit and pitch. He will eventually need to choose one. Is that in 2 years? 3? More? Less?

[cals]

1 minute ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

You can’t really pay him like that though.  5 years with the Angels and he’s never truly put both skills together at elite levels at the same time.

I know.  I agree with your assessment 100% and think the bulk of his value is in his pitching.  But then he’s probably got a 50 HR season in him still.  

But as you said, the fact you need a 6 man rotation and he doesn’t play the field (much), does seem to negate the roster spot he saves.

[BTH]

8 minutes ago, cals said:

But she’s wrong.  Frankly I think signing Ohtani will handcuff whatever GM is trying to deal with this dumpster fire.  And THAT’S what she should be complaining regarding Morono about (that was for AO).  

Not understanding that trading him could have massive, positive implications is kind of disturbing considering it’s coming from a professional sports writer (even if it’s one who cries for unknown reasons and when you ask what’s wrong you’re told ‘nothing’ and then you’re yelled at 6 months later for not knowing).

I guess I was just more focused on the fact that Arte Moreno is getting called out in some sense (as he should).

He can’t keep getting away with this, so I’m happy to see any criticism directed towards him.

[cals]

Just now, Trendon said:

I guess I was just more focused on the fact that Arte Moreno is getting called out in some sense (as he should).

He can’t keep getting away with this, so I’m happy to see any criticism directed towards him.

Fair enough.

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 minute ago, beatlesrule said:

I have no idea how much longer Ohtani can hit and pitch. He will eventually need to choose one. Is that in 2 years? 3? More? Less?

Who knows. It depends on his arms health, how long his bat holds up and his willingness to learn to play a defensive position.

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 minutes ago, cals said:

I know.  I agree with your assessment 100% and think the bulk of his value is in his pitching.  But then he’s probably got a 50 HR season in him still.  

But as you said, the fact you need a 6 man rotation and he doesn’t play the field (much), does seem to negate the roster spot he saves.

I think it’s just too hard. If he hits 50 homers it will probably be in a year where his pitching is shut down.

[beatlesrule]

5 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Who knows. It depends on his arms health, how long his bat holds up and his willingness to learn to play a defensive position.

Since we always compare him to the Babe, he has pitched more than Ruth if you combine his Japan playing days. I just can't see him doing both for the next 5 years and beyond. I will be stoked if he makes it 3 more. Here's a crazy stat: Babe Ruth only has 1 MVP. Shohei has already tied him there.

[AngelsLakersFan]

7 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

Since we always compare him to the Babe, he has pitched more than Ruth if you combine his Japan playing days. I just can't see him doing both for the next 5 years and beyond. I will be stoked if he makes it 3 more. Here's a crazy stat: Babe Ruth only has 1 MVP. Shohei has already tied him there.

I think the mvp award was done differently or not at all for most of Ruth’s career.

[Stradling]

7 hours ago, Trendon said:

Arte Moreno deserves blame, so I’m encouraged to see blame rightfully directed at him.

It may be meaningless, but it’s better than him being ignored.

He gets blame in every article written about the Angels Lack of success. 

[PattyD22]

9 hours ago, Trendon said:

Good to see the newspaper outlets begin to call out Arte Moreno’s ineptitude.

The LA Times’ Helene Elliott wrote something similar: 

But we still need the beat reporters that cover the team to call Arte out in articles (ie Fletcher and Blum)

 

There is still an LA Times?

And people read it?

[Amazing Larry]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

He gets blame in every article written about the Angels Lack of success. 

Shirley you can’t be serious?

[AngelsFaninGA]

10 minutes ago, Lhalo said:

Shirley you can’t be serious?

Please, don't call me Surely

[disarcina]

unfortunately the column appears to be spot on.

years of futility continue for the Halos.

this season might be one of the list of the most disappointing - in that it started with such promise, a great April into May, Angels starting pitching doing well, hitting on all cylinders and then WHAM - not sure what happened but the Halos hit a wall about mid-May and have tumbled into free fall ever since.

Firing Maddon and replacing him with Phil Nevin hasn't done anything.

the one long time Diamond Club fan quoted sums it all up pretty well - the constant futility is just too much to keep watching.

The one thing I do disagree with (in the article's criticism of Arte) is the Los Angeles/ Anaheim Angels issue.  I think Arte made the right marketing move for the team and franchise with reclaiming the 'second' Los Angeles franchise designation (go back and watch the old tape of the announcement from the Winter meetings in St. Louis in 1960 awarding the franchise to Gene Autry) as it has value -- look northward to Oakland to see what Billy Beane and the Oakland franchise has had to deal with (opposition from the SF Giants) in not being able to move within the region.  The Giants blocked Oakland's potential moves to San Jose and to the San Mateo peninsula - and MLB let them.  The Oakland A's are truly a small market team with a real stadium issue.  

We're at least a somewhat major market team - suddenly with a stadium issue - that often acts like a small market team. Futility reigns.

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

On 7/31/2022 at 8:31 PM, Taylor said:

It would have been funny if you started every paragraph with "Whereas."

It would be my ultimate proclamation 

[Docwaukee]

I can't help but want to math the crap out of this.  

So let's say he's Gerrit Cole in terms of talent but because of various restrictions, Ohtani is essentially 2/3rds of that.  Cole makes 36m per.  So lets say Ohtani's straight up pitching value is 24m.  

Now his offense.  He's probably about a 3 WAR DH.  But there's some criss cross apple sauce in terms of that value.  Brandon Marsh is probably a 3 WAR CFer with his paltry offense.  Trout is probably a 5 WAR DH.  

So here's the math I'm thinking of.  Is Adell plus Ward plus Trout plus Marsh.  Plus some bench guy we might not have yet.  How much more valuable is Ohtani plus Trout plus Ward plus Marsh plus Adell?  Some it this is future projections.  Some of this is injury related.  Some of it depends on that fifth guy.  

While Shohei is super exciting on offense, he's much more replaceable than people want to acknowledge.  

So what is his replacement value as a DH?  It's really not that much to be honest.  Maybe 10m max?  

Now the not so obvious math part.  What is Shohei's draw?  There is speculation that it's about 10m.  I would probably argue that it's more than that.  But what the hell do I know?

So.  Can you replace a 24m pitcher.  A 10m DH and a 15m cash cow?  So he's worth probably 50m.  And someone is about to pay him probably 45m.  Probably for longer than he's worth that 45m per year.  So at some point you're paying him 45m and he's not worth 50m anymore.  

Now.  What is your ROI if you trade him?  First of all, I don't think you miss his offense that much if you can acquire two really good position players and open up the DH spot to guys like Trout and others.  

So as some have mentioned, it boils down to his value as a pitcher.  You'd have to get it right if you, let's say, get two top notch pitching prospects.  One of the has to be an ace.  

And the final thing is, can you get another team to pay extra for the novelty?  If you can get extra return because of that then you do it.  This is where the rubber meets the road imo.  I love Shohei and he's the reason I tune in on most days.  But I would watch more if the team was winning regardless of whether they had a unicorn.  Find a way to turn the unicorn into value because he's a unicorn.  Do the math to help the team win.  Not to make them a bit more watchable.  

Here's how I feel right now.  I'll watch some Shohei highlights.  I'll watch some Mike Trout highlights.  I might tune into a game if Shohei is pitching.  But if they were 7 games over .500 and in a WC spot, I would probably watch every game.  And it wouldn't matter whether they had Ohtani.  

Bottom line.  Win and I'll care more.  Suck with Gosselin and Velazquez and Wade and a bunch of other crap?  You've totally lost me.  I'll pay half attention to the unicorn but frankly, If you lose 60% of the time I'm just not gonna care that much.  

[Lou]

[Mark68]

2 hours ago, disarcina said:

unfortunately the column appears to be spot on.

years of futility continue for the Halos.

this season might be one of the list of the most disappointing - in that it started with such promise, a great April into May, Angels starting pitching doing well, hitting on all cylinders and then WHAM - not sure what happened but the Halos hit a wall about mid-May and have tumbled into free fall ever since.

Firing Maddon and replacing him with Phil Nevin hasn't done anything.

the one long time Diamond Club fan quoted sums it all up pretty well - the constant futility is just too much to keep watching.

The one thing I do disagree with (in the article's criticism of Arte) is the Los Angeles/ Anaheim Angels issue.  I think Arte made the right marketing move for the team and franchise with reclaiming the 'second' Los Angeles franchise designation (go back and watch the old tape of the announcement from the Winter meetings in St. Louis in 1960 awarding the franchise to Gene Autry) as it has value -- look northward to Oakland to see what Billy Beane and the Oakland franchise has had to deal with (opposition from the SF Giants) in not being able to move within the region.  The Giants blocked Oakland's potential moves to San Jose and to the San Mateo peninsula - and MLB let them.  The Oakland A's are truly a small market team with a real stadium issue.  

We're at least a somewhat major market team - suddenly with a stadium issue - that often acts like a small market team. Futility reigns.

 

The A's status as a secondary team in the Bay Area has nothing to do with them not being the "San Francisco A's". It has everything to do with the fact that they play in Oakland. Has the Angels changing their "location" to LA really increased their market presence? If anything, it's made things worse because of how inept this team has been for the last decade. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

On 7/31/2022 at 8:40 PM, Trendon said:

Good to see the newspaper outlets begin to call out Arte Moreno’s ineptitude.

The LA Times’ Helene Elliott wrote something similar: 

But we still need the beat reporters that cover the team to call Arte out in articles (ie Fletcher and Blum)

 

It’s not my job to “call out” anyone. It’s my job to provide facts and analysis. 

[eligrba]

3 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

It’s not my job to “call out” anyone. It’s my job to provide facts and analysis. 

But the people have a right to project blame and be outraged.

 

How do you live with yourself?