The Angels Pitching Staff

[DMVol]

10 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

Outside of Ohtani's arm issues, this is all on Eppler. He's had ample time to prove that he cannot put a winning team and successful pitching staff together. 

I like the guy and think he's well intentioned and I'll forever be grateful for the Ohtani signing and Trout extension, but he doesn't have a clue on building a good pitching rotation and for that matter, a solid bullpen. 

^^^^  The thought of another change at GM doesn't really doesn't appeal to me....but 5 years in, Eppler has nothing to show for his moves on starting pitching....he's done some good things, including picking up some relievers and position players on the cheap, but overall, his record on starting pitching (Harvey, Cahill, Chavez, Meyer) isn't encouraging....and, 5 years in, not much from the farm (Canning, Suarez, Barria).....

[totdprods]

Still not exactly seeing how Eppler should have fixed the pitching over the last four years when he didn’t really have the money or prospects to do it.

The only way he really could have ensured he was landing a top arm would have been trading Adell, Canning, etc. at some point. Almost every FA either wanted to go elsewhere or wanted more money than the Angels were already competitively offering.

Everything and anything else anyone could bring up this point would be extremely hindsighty like “oh wow Lance Lynn should have been Priority 1A all along” or “why didn’t the Angels draft Whitely instead of Thaiss”

[AngelsFaninGA]

7 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Still not exactly seeing how Eppler should have fixed the pitching over the last four years when he didn’t really have the money or prospects to do it.

The only way he really could have ensured he was landing a top arm would have been trading Adell, Canning, etc. at some point. Almost every FA either wanted to go elsewhere or wanted more money than the Angels were already competitively offering.

Everything and anything else anyone could bring up this point would be extremely hindsighty like “oh wow Lance Lynn should have been Priority 1A all along” or “why didn’t the Angels draft Whitely instead of Thaiss”

These same excuses can be made for the next 75 years if need be. Draft better, spend more money, do better. He clearly had money to extend Trout, sign Upton/Rendon, etc. Outside of Ohtani, who no one is really blaming Eppler for anyway, he hasn't made much effort. 

And yes, Canning and Adell should be traded

[Angel Oracle]

22 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Still not exactly seeing how Eppler should have fixed the pitching over the last four years when he didn’t really have the money or prospects to do it.

The only way he really could have ensured he was landing a top arm would have been trading Adell, Canning, etc. at some point. Almost every FA either wanted to go elsewhere or wanted more money than the Angels were already competitively offering.

Everything and anything else anyone could bring up this point would be extremely hindsighty like “oh wow Lance Lynn should have been Priority 1A all along” or “why didn’t the Angels draft Whitely instead of Thaiss”

This is partly true.

How can a pitching staff still be a flustercluck going on five years later?

[totdprods]

9 minutes ago, AngelsFaninGA said:

These same excuses can be made for the next 75 years if need be. Draft better, spend more money, do better. He clearly had money to extend Trout, sign Upton/Rendon, etc. Outside of Ohtani, who no one is really blaming Eppler for anyway, he hasn't made much effort. 

And yes, Canning and Adell should be traded

Draft better, spend more money on scouting...those are also things that aren’t necessarily under his control. If Arte isn’t committing the resources to amplify those aspects, there’s only so much Eppler can do - and that’s not taking into consideration the strategies he had to devise already due to years of neglect and lack of innovation.

Had the farm/scouting not been neglected, Eppler very well could have (and wanted to) always draft the best available arm, but he knew he had to make the most out of every bit of his draft pool and selections and chose to spread that out and focus on 2-4 rounds instead of dumping it all on a risky college pitcher at #1. 

I maintain that injuries and lack of farm/depth are what have tanked his tenure. Not his strategy so much. 

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

Pitching is always at a premium.  Last year there were arms moved before the deadline some of which were younger and the price was high.  The off season rolls around and in terms of FA and trades the price is still high.  Some of the FA's wanted the most money, to stay on the east coast or to stay with their previous teams.  Some of the guys discussed as being available via trade were not going to come cheap.  It is what it is but for the last so many years we've heard wait until the trade deadline then it becomes wait until FA, rinse and repeat.  There's no guarantee when it comes to trades or FA but sooner or later the Angels need to take a chance to bring in a 1-2 type pitcher or a guy who has the chance to become that.   

[totdprods]

3 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

This is partly true.

How can a pitching staff still be a flustercluck going on five years later?

Lack of good pitching on the farm? Dipoto and Reagins had no idea what they were doing and it was a wasteland. If everyone could flip a switch and produce good, cheap pitching in 5 years everyone would do it. Injuries and death have hit us too. 

And I think you could argue that Barria, Suarez, Sandoval, Canning, Detmers, all could be there at any time. It takes time, especially when you have nothing to work with on the player side or the resources side. Throw bad luck into it and here we are.

[Mark PT]

1 hour ago, Blarg said:

And to compound it that's Shit Creek. 

And I suppose you are saying that you forgot the paddles?

[eligrba]

16 hours ago, Slegnaac said:

I seem to recall that Harvey had issues with hitting the target the catcher set, so ya philosophical differences.

However, Harvey was outstanding at hitting opposing player’s bats.

[eligrba]

55 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Still not exactly seeing how Eppler should have fixed the pitching over the last four years when he didn’t really have the money or prospects to do it.

The only way he really could have ensured he was landing a top arm would have been trading Adell, Canning, etc. at some point. Almost every FA either wanted to go elsewhere or wanted more money than the Angels were already competitively offering.

Everything and anything else anyone could bring up this point would be extremely hindsighty like “oh wow Lance Lynn should have been Priority 1A all along” or “why didn’t the Angels draft Whitely instead of Thaiss”

Just review the pitching staff of the A‘s for the past 4 years. The Angels could have afforded every one of their pitchers. I believe two years ago the A‘s had to completely rebuild a new group of starting pitchers in mid season due to injuries. It can be done, but apparently not with the current Angel‘s front office.

Edited August 19, 2020 by eligrba

[DMVol]

27 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Draft better, spend more money on scouting...those are also things that aren’t necessarily under his control. If Arte isn’tcommitting the resources to amplify those aspects, there’s only so much Eppler can do - and that’s not taking into consideration the strategies he had to devise already due to years of neglect and lack of innovation.

Arte gave him 30 million to spend after the 2018 season and he signed Cahill, Harvey and Allen....I like Eppler, he isn't a disaster, but you and I could have done better than that....and that's not an exaggeration....

[totdprods]

12 minutes ago, DMVol said:

Arte gave him 30 million to spend after the 2018 season and he signed Cahill, Harvey and Allen....I like Eppler, he isn't a disaster, but you and I could have done better than that....and that's not an exaggeration....

Cahill and Harvey were awful. It happens. Huge misses by Eppler, no doubt. I’m starting to think the issue was just as much White and Ausmus too - moves also on Eppler. Most here weren’t particularly excited with Harvey or Cahill, but generally I think folks were optimistic they’d be steady enough. And I still am not really seeing what he should/could have done differently without leaning too heavily on hindsight.

The other FA options that year? Pat Corbin? No one saw $140m coming as the price tag. The Angels were still in on him too. And if they had signed him he still wouldn’t have been enough to save us - and he would have likely kept us from signing Rendon. Dallas Keuchel? No one could even sign him before the season started. Eovaldi? He’s been mediocre, hurt, overpaid. And the Angels went after him. They also pursued Happ, who has also been mediocre, hurt, and overpaid. Charlie Morton? No interest playing out west. Yusei Kikuchi? They reportedly pursued but he really hasn’t been anything too special, especially for the price. 

Trade market? It would have cost one or two, if not three, of Adell, Marsh, Canning, or Suarez minimum to get anything of real quality. Most here still don’t want to trade those. I’m still not seeing where exactly we missed out, realistically. Sometimes shit just sucks.

Edited August 19, 2020 by totdprods

[Amazing Larry]

Arte needs to build a new stadium in the parking lot and demo the old one on the indian burial ground. It's the only way this team will ever win again.

It's science.

[DMVol]

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

Cahill and Harvey were awful. It happens. Huge misses by Eppler, no doubt. I’m starting to think the issue was just as much White and Ausmus too - moves also on Eppler. Most here weren’t particularly excited with Harvey or Cahill, but generally I think folks were optimistic they’d be steady enough. And I still am not really seeing what he should/could have done differently without leaning too heavily on hindsight.

The other FA options that year? Pat Corbin? No one saw $140m coming as the price tag. The Angels were still in on him too. And if they had signed him he still wouldn’t have been enough to save us - and he would have likely kept us from signing Rendon. Dallas Keuchel? No one could even sign him before the season started. Eovaldi? He’s been mediocre, hurt, overpaid. And the Angels went after him. They also pursued Happ, who has also been mediocre, hurt, and overpaid. Charlie Morton? No interest playing out west. Yusei Kikuchi? They reportedly pursued but he really hasn’t been anything too special, especially for the price. 

Trade market? It would have cost one or two, if not three, of Adell, Marsh, Canning, or Suarez minimum to get anything of real quality. Most here still don’t want to trade those. I’m still not seeing where exactly we missed out, realistically. Sometimes shit just sucks.

Hindsight is 20/20 for sure but I guess my point was that you emphasized "things out of Eppler's control".....he certainly controlled the 30 million he spent on "couldn't have been any worse" FA signings.....Nobody gets them all right but you would have thought he might accidentally get something right that offseason....As to other options? Maybe sign a position player FA and trade somebody else for pitching?  Maybe not spend 30 million on garbage like he did....Pocket the money and hope you could use it at the trade deadline if you didn't like the options available....You can say the Lance Lynn signing was an anomaly that winter (you didn't mention him) but somebody at Texas did some pretty good evaluating to sign Lynn and Mike Minor as FA's....

[totdprods]

2 minutes ago, DMVol said:

Hindsight is 20/20 for sure but I guess my point was that you emphasized "things out of Eppler's control".....he certainly controlled the 30 million he spent on "couldn't have been worse" FA signings.....Nobody gets them all right but you would have thought he might accidentally get something right that offseason....As to other options? Maybe sign a position player FA and trade somebody else for pitching?  You can say the Lance Lynn signing was an anomaly that winter (you didn't mention him) but somebody at Texas did some pretty good evaluating to sign Lynn and Mike Minor as FA's....

I mentioned Lynn in a prior post...

I don’t think we had much else to trade that would have brought anything impactful back. And yeah, he missed big on those (almost all FA’s to date, to be honest, but also, most FA’s don’t work anyways) and while that is squarely on his shoulders, the need and stakes wouldn’t have been so high if the state of the org wasn’t so poor to begin with. 

And again, cataclysmic injuries.

[DMVol]

Just now, totdprods said:

I mentioned Lynn in a prior post...

I don’t think we had much else to trade that would have brought anything impactful back. And yeah, he missed big on those (almost all FA’s to date, to be honest, but also, most FA’s don’t work anyways) and while that is squarely on his shoulders, the need and stakes wouldn’t have been so high if the state of the org wasn’t so poor to begin with. 

And again, cataclysmic injuries.

True...weak farm system, gutted international pool money, terrible payroll allocation (Pujols, etc.) all have worked against him....but I just can't give him a pass after 5 years....he's done some things right but I can't honestly say I feel better about where we are now than in the winter of 2016 when he was hired....maybe not worse but not much, if any, better....

I never thought I'd say this but I'm not so sure it isn't time to gut it and start over...it's really hard to try to compete and rebuild at the same time...Need to be careful not to overreact in a truncated season but I just don't see much light at the end of the tunnel.  I can't imagine trading Trout but, for the first time, I'm not totally sure I wouldn't put that on the table...

[Amazing Larry]

[Jason]

[JBR]

20 hours ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

 

What ever this Philosophy is, it sucks, all its awarding us with is Tjs.

I think this quote may specifically have to do with the former pitching coach Doug White, who was there when Harvey was. Other pitchers reported having trouble adjusting to White’s ideas and approach to pitching, like Barrea and Suarez according to the LA Times.  
 

Even apart from White, I think the issue of TJ you bring up remains and seems to go beyond the Ausmus/White regime and stretch back years. It’s something the organization needs to figure out .