Ty Buttrey needs a damn break.

[Claude]

2 minutes ago, krAbs said:

Funny, I was thinking of how he used De La Rosa. I remember it felt like we were going to him every night for a while, often for 2 innings, and he was great. Then, he broke.

Yep there’s always that one guy. Then he’s gone. Morin has been pretty successful in Minnesota but they’re not overworking him. 

[Lou]

Buttrey's pitch count over the last 5 days = 17 

[Claude]

3 hours ago, Stradling said:

He’s pitched 7 1/3 innings this month, it’s June 21 and the Angels have had one day off this month.  

Remember last season when Ohtani was pitching every 8-10 days and gave us 4 innings in June while he was on the workload management program. How long did he last 50 or 60 innings?

Edited June 21, 2019 by Calzone 2

[UndertheHalo]

But he’s been faltering for about a month now.  I’m just saying that maybe he needs a decent stretch of time off.  Also Robles, Bedrosian and Ramirez are more mature arms.  I don’t know if it’s an issue at all.  I’m just trying to make a conversation.  It would make sense to me if it is an issue. 

Its certainly possible that he’s just regressed a bit and the usage is fine. 

At the end of the day the main issue is the poor performance of the starting rotation. 

Edited June 21, 2019 by UndertheHalo

[Stradling]

7 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

Remember last season when Ohtani was pitching every 8-10 days and gave us 4 innings in June while he was on the workload management program. How long did he last 50 or 60 innings?

Remember when Kobe hit two free throws after tearing his Achilles?  (Posted for relevance to this topic)

[GrittyVeterans]

I've been saying for a while that they are going to run him into the ground at the current rate. Ausmus needs to take a step back and look at the bigger picture

[Angel Oracle]

4 hours ago, Stradling said:

He’s pitched 7 1/3 innings this month, it’s June 21 and the Angels have had one day off this month.  

That factors to only about 10 innings for a month (60 for a season).    Something else is going on.  

AL batters figuring him out, and now he needs to adjust?   Or just a slump with his command?

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

It’s possible that’s his early success was unsustainable and he’s just getting to his actual level now. 

Did you think he was going to go all year with a 1.30 ERA?

Agreed, but this is the other extreme he is going through in June, given his success from July on in 2018 and through May this season.   

[aznhockeyguy]

Bullpen use has been my pet peeve about Ausmus.  He needs to let the starters work longer and to get out of trouble.  I don't know if this is a management directive or his style, but he needs to let the starters go deeper and longer. 

For relievers, it isn't necessarily about pitch count.  Every time they go into the game, they have a dozen or so warm-up pitches before they even throw 1 in the mound, so add that amount to every appearance a reliever is in the game.

[Angel Oracle]

There does seem to be a lot more partial innings for relievers since Ausmus took over.   Sosh seemed to not care much for that tactic.

It does mean more times warming up, than if a reliever traditionally pitched at least an inning in the past. 

[Stradling]

When you look at Mike Morin you might want to look at innings pitched as well which was 59 that first year.  He had pitched 70 in the minors the year before, so it isn’t like it was his first time pitching that many innings.  Also, if we are going to talk about stressful innings, I would assume the stress to get to the majors is about as equal as staying in the majors.  He pitched great that first year, then he lost his change up from what I can remember.  

[floplag]

1 hour ago, GrittyVeterans said:

I've been saying for a while that they are going to run him into the ground at the current rate. Ausmus needs to take a step back and look at the bigger picture

Its not an Ausmus problem... What can he do if our SP cant get thru 5... what choices does he have?   Epp needs to make some moves to give Ausmus options.  

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

Agreed, but this is the other extreme he is going through in June, given his success from July on in 2018 and through May this season.   

That’s how relievers seasons look. They pitch to a few batters at a time so when they give up 3 runs it looks a lot worse than when a starter gives up 3 runs. 

He has pitched a lot but at this point I don’t think that’s related to his performance.

Guys throw bad pitches. And those aren’t going to be perfectly spaced out throughout the year so your performance is consistent. 

He was unsustainably good and for the last, what, 6 innings?, he’s been less good. 

Thats how it works 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

On 6/21/2019 at 8:58 AM, Jeff Fletcher said:

It’s possible that’s his early success was unsustainable and he’s just getting to his actual level now. 

Did you think he was going to go all year with a 1.30 ERA?

Jeff, I agree with your response.

However, I see the whole picture relief pitchers have great seasons, good seasons and meh seasons it happens based on workload and nagging injuries across a  game and season including some other issues that they need to get beyond.

Would he "Buttery" continue what he was doing? Truthfully, no one can say either way. I look at Velo, arm angles and hitting spots. As your arm tires it is harder to hit spots. 

But, we can go back into the historical data of the overall bullpen workload across the last 3-4 seasons between Sven and Ausmus and say yes. Even though there was a change of Managers this season. The Bullpen workload has not changed. Either based on lack of Starting pitcher depth, their ability to lengthen their innings while shortening the bullpen workload. Or, based on openers who could theoretically be placed in a situation when needed later in the game to give another reliever a day off or less pitches thrown.

Just a thought.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

On 6/21/2019 at 7:51 AM, mulwin444 said:

 JC has been ramping up to 100 pitches at SLC...they are positioning him as a starter so it might be moot to discuss him as a BP option.  I think Pena moves to the BP and Ramirez gets the "opener" treatment.

Middleton is getting ready to pitch to live batters soon.  When he's finished his rehab, likely in July, and he's promoted, he'll likely be leveraged like Robles, Buttrey and Bedrosian unless health or performance dictate otherwise.  If he stumbles or has something like "shoulder inflammation/fatigue", you might see a deadline deal from Eppler but I think he's banking on these two to provide some needed depth to the BP 

JC responses:

1. All of our starting pitcher candidates have Ramped up somewhere for 100 pitches.... It hasn't happened too often at all this season. The main thing is we really don't know how he will be used or if they will still use the opener like with Pena? And will an opener allow JC to go deeper in a Game as it hasn't happened but a few times with Pena?... Coming back from TJ he isn't going to be consistent (historically shows) a 1 year of game action until the #'s and innings come back.

2. 100 pitches are a lot across an entire length of the game today! How many within that limit will be strikes, and or wasted pitches to setup the next offering. (This is the key within the 100 pitch statement). Not factoring in in-game decisions and or hitting changes and or changes by the opposition. However, I think what you will see is similar to everyone else we've been pitching this year (100 pitches means 70-80 in the actual game).

3. Also, if they use JC as a starter he will still only throw once every  5-6 days.

 

Middleton response:

1. The time frame of recovery is 1 year post surgery not including getting back to a regular workload as before. He still will not be able to hold a significant and consistent amount of appearances. 2-3 times for a 1 inning limit is usually the max 20-25 pitches. And we haven't even talked about consecutive days without rest due to the injury.  He will help I just wouldn't expect consecutive days or more than 2-3 appearances per week and he may even get backed off at some point if he ends up throwing as much as the others have been.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

On 6/21/2019 at 9:13 AM, Calzone 2 said:

Yep there’s always that one guy. Then he’s gone. Morin has been pretty successful in Minnesota but they’re not overworking him. 

And it took him a few years to get back to what he was doing for us.

We over worked him his rookie season 60 games! Laid back on him his 2nd season 47 games. Then ramped back up on him 60 games. Then he disappeared. 

And now it has taken him 3 years with a lesser workload to show up again.

 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

You guys also need to factor in every time a relief pitcher warms up due to a bad inning then sits down and then they put another pitcher in instead of the one that warmed up.

60 games pitched for a reliever usually means he probably warmed up in 75-80-90 times and maybe more across an entire season. And sometimes those 15-20 pitches are the equivalent to a game inning pitched.  Whether they got into the game or not.

Ex. There were times I warmed up 4 times during the course of the game. And pitched in the 9th inning (in that game and prior to going into it I threw 50-60 pitches in the bullpen! ***I had to be perfect, get ahead in the count, and get people out quickly with less pitches thrown. So, I could do it the next 4 days of the week.*** There were even some weeks and series I wouldn't pitch or even wear anything more than shorts and a jersey in the bullpen "Just, so I was available Wednesday - Sunday" or every game depending on the current and next series and opponent.   Yes, it true that management of the bullpen and the game has changed due to situations and analytics being used. But, the warm-ups and cool-downs still happen along the course of the season. Based on how other arms are feeling in the bullpen and or days off required.

[Claude]

4 minutes ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

And it took him a few years to get back to what he was doing for us.

We over worked him his rookie season 60 games! Laid back on him his 2nd season 47 games. Then ramped back up on him 60 games. Then he disappeared. 

And now it has taken him 3 years with a lesser workload to show up again.

 

Yep and he was pretty solid until Sosh put him on speed dial. 

[Stradling]

25 minutes ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

And it took him a few years to get back to what he was doing for us.

We over worked him his rookie season 60 games! Laid back on him his 2nd season 47 games. Then ramped back up on him 60 games. Then he disappeared. 

And now it has taken him 3 years with a lesser workload to show up again.

 

He pitched 70 innings the year before in the minors. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

47 minutes ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

Jeff, I agree with your response.

However, I see the whole picture relief pitchers have great seasons, good seasons and meh seasons it happens based on workload and nagging injuries across a  game and season including some other issues that they need to get beyond.

Would he "Buttery" continue what he was doing? Truthfully, no one can say either way. I look at Velo, arm angles and hitting spots. As your arm tires it is harder to hit spots. 

But, we can go back into the historical data of the overall bullpen workload across the last 3-4 seasons between Sven and Ausmus and say yes. Even though there was a change of Managers this season. The Bullpen workload has not changed. Either based on lack of Starting pitcher depth, their ability to lengthen their innings while shortening the bullpen workload. Or, based on openers who could theoretically be placed in a situation when needed later in the game to give another reliever a day off or less pitches thrown.

Just a thought.

I’ll add this. Scioscia occasionally used relievers three days in a row, maybe 5-6 times a year in the last few years. Ausmus has not done it once. 

I will also add that MLB teams, including the Angels, now have more data than ever to measure their pitchers and know when they’re losing spin or their release point is changing or to generally gauge their strength. They test these guys all the time.

I think you can always find relievers whose effectiveness changes vastly from year or year or month to month. Sometimes it’s because they get tired and sometimes it’s just the nature of small sample sizes. Sometimes it’s just that they aren’t that good, which is why they become relievers instead of starters in the first place. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Jeff Fletcher

[Lou]

Morin didn't make his season debut until 5/3. Since then, Buttrey has only pitched 3.1 innings more than him. 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

2 hours ago, Stradling said:

He pitched 70 innings the year before in the minors. 

44/57.2 games/innings pitched between Seattle and Tacoma in 2018.

I believe in the end he warmed up less each game and pretty much had a role in Tacoma as the primary set-up man. 12 GF and 3 saves.

 

 

[Inside Pitch]

 

[UndertheHalo]

It’s not really that surprising.  Even when he gets a few days off it’s always preceded by and followed by pretty heavy usage in short spans. I didn’t really articulate that well because I can’t be bothered to dig that deep but I know what I’ve seen ! 

[Stradling]

7 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

It’s not really that surprising.  Even when he gets a few days off it’s always preceded by and followed by pretty heavy usage in short spans. I didn’t really articulate that well because I can’t be bothered to dig that deep but I know what I’ve seen ! 

It is June 27th and I think he pitched 9 1/3 innings this month.