What would it take to make the 2017 season a success?

[Oz27]

You've done an epic job in this thread of twisting peoples arguments and dodging questions.

[Ohtaniland]

10 minutes ago, Stradling said:

So you trade Calhoun, Richards, Simmons and hope to get guys that are good enough in 3 years to compete while not cutting any real salary.  Oh and hope that this convinces Trout to stay.  I'll go with option B.  

We really need to stop worrying about the "Trout Window" and just keep building through smart drafts and solid trades. If Trout is ever traded it will be at his request so don't get too attached. We can win without Trout, it's been done before. 

[tdawg87]

Wap

 

 

 

Ner.

[Docwaukee]

Our plan is and always has been to field a competitive major league team.  My impression of Arte's motivation for doing this is to get fans into the ballpark.  Winning is secondary to that in my opinion.  So we're never going to trade away the core of the team and rebuild the farm the way that other teams do unless we are absolutely forced by sheer attrition.  

We've also never been a 'win at all costs' franchise as well.  It may seem like this on the surface with the acquisition of guys like Pujols and Hamilton, but those were marketing moves.  Again, attempts to fill gaps with players that would motivate fans to show interest in the team.  

When your philosophy or foundation isn't as much about winning as it is about attendance, you are starting in the wrong place.  Executing the plan from that starting point is a recipe for failure.  

Perhaps the fiasco from the previous regime has taught valuable lessons as it relates to meddling.  Maybe.  But still boils down to how you execute a plan to keep the major league club competitive on a yearly basis.  When you have the resources that this team has, you can pull off not having to rebuild, but you can't put all your eggs into one basket.  

I would love to have an awesome farm system.  But breaking down a major league club is a very dangerous game.  It's extremely high risk with no guarantees.  

You have to ask yourself what the primary goal is as this organization is currently constructed.  Mine would be to create a situation where the cornerstone of your franchise sees enough around him that he would want to sign an extension.  And let me tell you something about major league players (because I have known my fair share of them), they don't give two shits about the farm system.  They care about the major league team that's right in front of them.  

So if you break the current team down, you have a minimum of 2-3 years of Trout and his buddy Albert (who you'll never move in a million years) playing side by side and looking around at scorched earth.  And you are going to sell Trout that help is coming?  If you make one misstep in that scenario, where the package you get for Richards or Shoe or Calhoun doesn't pan out then you are screwed.  And these are prospects we are talking about so the chances are that a lot of them aren't going to work out.  Show me a team that has undergone a rapid rebuild in 3 years?  If you can show me one, I bet I can show you 10 others that are still rebuilding.  

or

 you bide your time and continue to dance with the girl you brought.  

Richards has two more years of control.  If he pitches well this year, an extension will be in order.  Calhoun is controlled through 2019.  Also an extension candidate.  The rest of your core is good through 2020.  This team's deficiencies are a result of poor drafting, a lack of international signings, and  trading away prospects as well as really only one stupid free agent signing.  One that, if you perform appropriately in one of the three above areas, doesn't even affect you.  So you stop gap it until you have some legit prospects ready to help the major league club in two years and you are back in business.  By 2019, we'll need some spots filled, but we'll have 75mil in committed payroll and two years worth of player development.  

I like our odds of keeping Trout for ten years after 2020 by filling a few holes in 2019 and 2020 as opposed to needing every hole to fill by then.  If it doesn't work then fine, Trout will leave and we'll rebuild.  

I am all for taking my chances on the established major leaguers surrounding Trout than a bunch of guys in AA/AAA with potential.  

[Docwaukee]

10 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

We really need to stop worrying about the "Trout Window" and just keep building through smart drafts and solid trades. If Trout is ever traded it will be at his request so don't get too attached. We can win without Trout, it's been done before. 

I couldn't disagree more.  It's not just the 'window' he creates.  It's what he does to elevate the floor of your ability to win.  Trout is just one guy, but he functions as 3 or even 4.  

Take 7 wins away (Trout's 9 minus an average players 2) and tell me how and where to make that up?  He turns an otherwise avg team into one that is close to 90 wins.  

What they are doing right now is setting things up for a run in 2019 and 2020.  If they were concerned merely about Trout's 'window' we'd have signed Justin Upton and Daniel Murphy last year.  

They're not building for Trout's window.  They are building for his extension.  

[Inside Pitch]

6 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

I'm not asking for them to turn it around over night. They've literally been the worst in baseball for like 3 or 4 consecutive years. That show's there's a problem with this organizations philosophy. 

And the Angels have talented players they could trade, quickly rebuilding the farmsystem. Instead of finishing with 80 wins, they'd finish with 70. Which is fine with me.

You may have missed it but there was a significant shift in organizational philosophy last year.  You say you don't expect it to change overnight, but you're acting like you do or at the very least you're ignoring that things did in fact change.   The results may not show it but there have been a lot of changes and a significantly better bottom up approach than we have seen in a long time.

Neither you nor I have any clue what they are planning to do over the next 18 months -- and those 18 months will let us all know if they have decided to go full redo or they intend to spend again when it makes more sense.  You don't seem to believe they can contend and that's fine.... plenty of reasons to believe they are dead in the water.... but more and more analysts are looking at the team and saying there is the possibility they can.  If I'm interpreting your posts correctly (notice I'm saying IF), you have no interest in them even trying, you just want them to punt... IMO it's punting or nothing because this as weak a FA crop as we have seen in a long long time and spending on anything other than pitching would IMO be an example of this team shooting itself in the foot.   Win now talk when there isn't much that can really help you win now is clown talk.

As others have pointed out and you have said yourself -- there are some players on the roster that could help speed up the rebuild of the farm.   They will still be on the roster in July, and if this team has tanked they can still be traded.   There are scenarios where players can gain and lose value in waiting, people will ultimately pick the scenario that best suits their opinions but the one thing I do know is if they punt now, they give themselves no chance at all.

I think we will all get a better idea of what their plans are come July..    I personally am hoping they have enough individual good performances that if they can sell off and build towards 2018 and beyond, they do.   Time will tell.  

[Inside Pitch]

53 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

They're not building for Trout's window.  They are building for his extension.  

That's what I'm hoping they are trying to do --  good luck trying to get the majority here to believe the team is actually doing that.

[Ohtaniland]

7 hours ago, Dochalo said:

I couldn't disagree more.  It's not just the 'window' he creates.  It's what he does to elevate the floor of your ability to win.  Trout is just one guy, but he functions as 3 or even 4.  

Take 7 wins away (Trout's 9 minus an average players 2) and tell me how and where to make that up?  He turns an otherwise avg team into one that is close to 90 wins.  

What they are doing right now is setting things up for a run in 2019 and 2020.  If they were concerned merely about Trout's 'window' we'd have signed Justin Upton and Daniel Murphy last year.  

They're not building for Trout's window.  They are building for his extension.  

So your theory is that Trout won't stay here unless the team is competitive by 2019 and 2020. We didn't sign Upton or Murphy because of budgetary issues. There's plenty of money available in 2021 and beyond that so why not extend him now?  

[The Ghost of Bob Starr]

The success is making it 162 games without a bus crash.  

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, CALZONE said:

So your theory is that Trout won't stay here unless the team is competitive by 2019 and 2020. We didn't sign Upton or Murphy because of budgetary issues. There's plenty of money available in 2021 and beyond that so why not extend him now?  

Any changes or extensions to his contract will add to his annual average and impact what they can or cannot do in the years between now and 2020.  

What exactly is your stance on the Trout/Angels situation.   You constantly talk about financial responsibility but you bring up extending him a good three years before it's even necessary to talk about it.  On other occasions you've brought up trading him to fix whats ailing the franchise.  

I pray the Angels brass has an actual plan and not the sort of feckless, shifting,"action for the sake of action" you seem to favor depending on whatever narrative it is you're pushing on any given day.

[Ohtaniland]

3 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Any changes or extensions to his contract will add to his annual average and impact what they can or cannot do in the years between now and 2020.  

What exactly is your stance on the Trout/Angels situation.   You constantly talk about financial responsibility but you bring up extending him a good three years before it's even necessary to talk about it.  On other occasions you've brought up trading him to fix whats ailing the franchise.  

I pray the Angels brass has an actual plan and not the sort of feckless, shifting,"action for the sake of action" you seem to favor depending on whatever narrative it is you're pushing on any given day.

Like the people who kept mentioning the "Trout Window" the past two seasons but now have shifted to the "Trout Extension Window" 

What about the "Weaver Window" or the "Scioscia Window" or the "Pujols Window"? Things don't always work out the way you think they should. They could actually build a competitive team by 2019 or 2020 but I'm convinced that Trout will still test the market regardless. It's my opinion that worrying about whatever "window" we create is futile. The focus should be to improve the organization at all levels and things will work themselves out with or without Trout.

And if you really have to include the Angels handling of Trout in your prayers...... Wow 

[Adam]

top 5 draft pick for 2018

[Inside Pitch]

22 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

Like the people who kept mentioning the "Trout Window" the past two seasons but now have shifted to the "Trout Extension Window" 

What about the "Weaver Window" or the "Scioscia Window" or the "Pujols Window"? Things don't always work out the way you think they should. They could actually build a competitive team by 2019 or 2020 but I'm convinced that Trout will still test the market regardless. It's my opinion that worrying about whatever "window" we create is futile. The focus should be to improve the organization at all levels and things will work themselves out with or without Trout.

And if you really have to include the Angels handling of Trout in your prayers...... Wow 

LOL...

Given your tendency to cry about imaginary slights it's probably not the best idea to try to assign an emotional or mental state to someone's use of a figure of speech.  You do understand what a figure of speech is don't you??  Have I given you too much credit?? 

Kisses.

 

[Docwaukee]

3 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

Like the people who kept mentioning the "Trout Window" the past two seasons but now have shifted to the "Trout Extension Window" 

What about the "Weaver Window" or the "Scioscia Window" or the "Pujols Window"? Things don't always work out the way you think they should. They could actually build a competitive team by 2019 or 2020 but I'm convinced that Trout will still test the market regardless. It's my opinion that worrying about whatever "window" we create is futile. The focus should be to improve the organization at all levels and things will work themselves out with or without Trout.

And if you really have to include the Angels handling of Trout in your prayers...... Wow 

his last sentence is hyperbole which I am sure you are familiar with.  

WTF is 'Scioscia window'?  Does it have salted cured meats hanging in it?  (I hate MS food jokes, but thought that was a halfway decent one at least)

Call it whatever you want but neither Weaver or Pujols has or was ever going to give you what Trout does.  

Get it through your head that the best chance this team has to win is to have a position player who is 7 wins better than the average player at his spot.  That's an extra win for every position player on the field.  And that's just what he does for this franchise on the field let alone what he means to this franchise.  

Players who make a lot of money aren't the devil.  Even the ones that make more than they produce on the field.  It's the cost of having a baseball franchise.  You are never going to win without investing in the free agent market.  Can you name a world series winner that didn't have an overpriced player?  

A player of Trout's caliber comes along once every 50 years and we have him on our team.  How do you not recognize the significance of that?  

Every team tries to create certain opportunities for themselves.  I can't think of a better place to start than having a 9 win 25 year old CFer.  So yes, you do what you can to improve the org at all levels but you take advantage of what you have in front of you.  

Carpe Pisces.  Seize the fish.  

[tdawg87]

I'm convinced Claude is 100% trolling with regards to Trout. He's not far away from flat out saying he wants to trade him. 

[Ohtaniland]

44 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

his last sentence is hyperbole which I am sure you are familiar with.  

WTF is 'Scioscia window'?  Does it have salted cured meats hanging in it?  (I hate MS food jokes, but thought that was a halfway decent one at least)

Call it whatever you want but neither Weaver or Pujols has or was ever going to give you what Trout does.  

Get it through your head that the best chance this team has to win is to have a position player who is 7 wins better than the average player at his spot.  That's an extra win for every position player on the field.  And that's just what he does for this franchise on the field let alone what he means to this franchise.  

Players who make a lot of money aren't the devil.  Even the ones that make more than they produce on the field.  It's the cost of having a baseball franchise.  You are never going to win without investing in the free agent market.  Can you name a world series winner that didn't have an overpriced player?  

A player of Trout's caliber comes along once every 50 years and we have him on our team.  How do you not recognize the significance of that?  

Every team tries to create certain opportunities for themselves.  I can't think of a better place to start than having a 9 win 25 year old CFer.  So yes, you do what you can to improve the org at all levels but you take advantage of what you have in front of you.  

Carpe Pisces.  Seize the fish.  

 

"A player of Trout's caliber comes along once every 50 years and we have him on our team.  How do you not recognize the significance of that?"

 

If this is the case, IP's argument about the difference in Trout's annual average shouldn't come into play. You extend him now and stop it with the silly "Window Shopping".....

 

Or could it be that Mike Trout has no intention of extending beyond his current deal for personal reasons that we are not aware of. He might be thinking about family and the east coast or his agent has advised him to wait and test the market. 

 

So if the Angels buildup a nice team the next couple seasons and Trout still decides he needs to leave, will people here be mad at him? 

[Ohtaniland]

18 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I'm convinced Claude is 100% trolling with regards to Trout. He's not far away from flat out saying he wants to trade him. 

When it comes to baseball business you never really know who's sitting on the opposite side of the table until you get to that table. You have family, agents, attorney's and a players union that will all have a say. No one here can convince me that building a team around Trout will convince him that this is the place to stay. Just build a team, make it competitive and leave it at that.  

[Docwaukee]

If I were Trout, I would be waiting to see what happens with the team in the next two years prior to considering an extension.  No way I am signing now after a 74 win season.  I would wait until some time during the post 2018 off season.  At which point I am hoping that Calhoun,  Simmons, Cron and Machado are in my lineup and doing well.  Hoping that Thaiss and Jones are now or on the verge of becoming everyday contributors.  Hoping that Heaney, Tropeano, Shoe, Skaggs and whoever we draft 10th this year are towing the mound.  Hoping that Bedrosian is a lock down closer.  That we've added a Cody Allen or Kelvin Herrera or Carter Capps.  Hoping that my friend and roommate Garrett Richards is healthy and has just signed an extension the previous year.       But most of all hoping that we are coming off a season where we made the playoffs or came very close and that some key additions along with an improving farm system put the major and minor league clubs in a position for success going forward.  

Sorry, but 'Building a team and making it competitive' is a fart in a stiff wind.  Guys will want to play here if the team is successful.  There is no better chance of attracting players to this team than keeping Trout long term.  

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, CALZONE said:

 

"A player of Trout's caliber comes along once every 50 years and we have him on our team.  How do you not recognize the significance of that?"

 

If this is the case, IP's argument about the difference in Trout's annual average shouldn't come into play. You extend him now and stop it with the silly "Window Shopping".....

 

Or could it be that Mike Trout has no intention of extending beyond his current deal for personal reasons that we are not aware of. He might be thinking about family and the east coast or his agent has advised him to wait and test the market. 

 

So if the Angels buildup a nice team the next couple seasons and Trout still decides he needs to leave, will people here be mad at him? 

???

Trout has four years left on his current deal there is no reason to extend him.  None.  Upping the amount owed to him on a yearly basis limits what the team can do during those four years where there are needs elsewhere and HE IS ALREADY SIGNED -- What part of that don't you understand?  Nothing I said is in conflict with what Doc is trying to make you understand... if anything it lines up with what he's saying about teams attempting to create opportunities for themselves.  Less payroll flexibility limits their opportunities elsewhere -- the only thing extending him accomplishes is making it easier for people like you to say they are spending too much money on any one player.

Also -- You just got done saying how the team should try to improve the organization regardless of the Trout situation -- but in your very next breath you are arguing they should extend him now when they don't need to....essentially making the Trout situation the priority instead of the team...  This is the sort of talking out both sides of your mouth that I asked you to clarify your position on and that you chose to dodge. 

When it's all said and done you just wanted to press on with this narrative that regardless of what the team does Mike Trout might leave.   We get it -- we got it every time you've brought it up.

 

[Stradling]

Guys it's not about making Claude understand.  He just likes to be "that guy" in every thread he enters.  

[Ohtaniland]

21 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

???

Trout has four years left on his current deal there is no reason to extend him.  None.  Upping the amount owed to him on a yearly basis limits what the team can do during those four years where there are needs elsewhere and HE IS ALREADY SIGNED -- What part of that don't you understand?  Nothing I said is in conflict with what Doc is trying to make you understand... if anything it lines up with what he's saying about teams attempting to create opportunities for themselves.  Less payroll flexibility limits their opportunities elsewhere -- the only thing extending him accomplishes is making it easier for people like you to say they are spending too much money on any one player.

Also -- You just got done saying how the team should try to improve the organization regardless of the Trout situation -- but in your very next breath you are arguing they should extend him now when they don't need to....essentially making the Trout situation the priority instead of the team...  This is the sort of talking out both sides of your mouth that I asked you to clarify your position on and that you chose to dodge. 

When it's all said and done you just wanted to press on with this narrative that regardless of what the team does Mike Trout might leave.   We get it -- we got it every time you've brought it up.

 

Ok you've made your point. I will say this....the longer they wait, the closer Trout gets to the open market. He won't pass up that opportunity. He has a No Trade contract so we could end up with just a draft pick when it's all said and done. My point is to make Mike Trout an Angel for life now and not wait until Trout gets closer to other options. You guys are comfortable with the wait and gamble side. 

[Stradling]

Talk about gamble.  You are comfortable with Arte not signing major league players because it won't put us over the hump to a championship.  That would be the biggest gamble if you want to keep Trout. 

[Inside Pitch]

3 hours ago, CALZONE said:

It's my opinion that worrying about whatever "window" we create is futile. The focus should be to improve the organization at all levels and things will work themselves out with or without Trout.

1 hour ago, CALZONE said:

No one here can convince me that building a team around Trout will convince him that this is the place to stay. Just build a team, make it competitive and leave it at that. 

And then....

4 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

Ok you've made your point. I will say this....the longer they wait, the closer Trout gets to the open market. He won't pass up that opportunity. He has a No Trade contract so we could end up with just a draft pick when it's all said and done. My point is to make Mike Trout an Angel for life now and not wait until Trout gets closer to other options. You guys are comfortable with the wait and gamble side. 

See you in 15 minutes when the narrative changes again.

[Ohtaniland]

6 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Guys it's not about making Claude understand.  He just likes to be "that guy" in every thread he enters.  

If the Angels just out of the blue signed Trout today to an extension that keeps him here until 2027 at $35M-$40M per season you guys would be jumping for joy and saying it was the right thing to do. But since I mentioned an extension it's a stupid idea. 

Go ahead, put him on layaway.

[Inside Pitch]

2 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

If the Angels just out of the blue signed Trout today to an extension that keeps him here until 2027 at $35M-$40M per season you guys would be jumping for joy and saying it was the right thing to do. But since I mentioned an extension it's a stupid idea. 

Go ahead, put him on layaway.

If the Angels just out of the blue signed Trout to an extension you'd start yapping about how they are making a mistake putting all that money into one player.

Go ahead, keep acting like a martyr.