GOP debate

[mtangelsfan]

MT, meet Juan.

Seriously? Juan is the troll daddy of the spin forum. I'm not even sure if he believes anything he posts. I take him about as seriously as a lifetime drama.

[Crampknees]

Juan is interesting.  My first thought is what kind of troll bothers with a 500 word post so then I think he is believing what he says.  Then you see that he just said the exact same thing again in either a 400 word or 700 word post so he is copying and pasting...troll, but not that good at it.  Trolls should never have to copy and paste and come up with new material.   

[red321]

**Warning, generalizations below. The generalizations are basically true, but they may not describe you.**

 

I can answer the question of whether Dems hate America. The answer is to separate the types of Dems we're talking about. Dems like JFK and Jim Webb don't hate America. Neither did the union guys who would be against Communism and beat up anti-Vietnam protesters. These are people who believe a certain thing about the relationship between people and the government, but who nonetheless are patriotic and defend the US. 

 

The leftist Dems (took over the party ideologically around the seventies, although most of the members of the party are still union members and various minorities, except for single women who must be close to the majority of women now) hate America. Why? Because they're leftists. Leftists see the US as having stood in the way of progress (Communism) and hate it for that reason. These are the people who make fun of people who like the US ("Merica!!"). They read America-haters like Chomsky and Zinn. The US isn't a country to admire- it's one to bring around to enlightenment (Marxism). 

 

When my friend came back from Argentina, she told me how Argentinians hated the US. I asked her if they were leftists, generally, and she said, "yes." Well, they hate the US because they're leftists, not because the US is mean. Think: what other reason would ARGENTINA have to hate the US? 

 

[juansavage1]

The question was whether Dems hate America. I was merely stating that leftists (not Dems) are generally anti-American and that that's a worldwide phenomenon. That's my experience from knowing lots of leftists, having been one, and what I've read from lefties themselves. Of course, if you love to go to your lefty friends' houses for 4th of July, wear flag pins, sing patriotic songs and recite passages from the founding documents, then your experience is different than mine. 

[juansavage1]

Being unpatriotic isn't the same thing as hating America, but leftists are generally less patriotic: 

 

 

A Pew Research survey last year found that 46 percent of “steadfast conservatives” believed that the U.S. stands above all other countries; only 11 percent of “solid liberals” believed the same. Seventy-two percent of steadfast conservatives said they often feel proud to be an American; only 40 percent of solid liberals said they do. ADVERTISING Gallup headlined its write-up of a 2010 survey “One in Three Americans ‘Extremely Patriotic’: Republicans, conservatives, and seniors most likely to say so.” According to Gallup, 52 percent of Republicans and 48 percent of conservatives called themselves extremely patriotic; only 20 percent of Democrats and 19 percent of liberals did. As a general matter, patriotic sentiment becomes more attenuated the further left you go. The late distinguished philosopher Richard Rorty, hardly a McCarthyite, once wrote a New York Times op-ed titled “The Unpatriotic Academy.”

 

He praised the Left on campus for its championing of marginalized groups, before stipulating that “there is a problem with this left: it is unpatriotic. In the name of ‘the politics of difference,’ it refuses to rejoice in the country it inhabits. It repudiates the idea of a national identity, and the emotion of national pride.”
 

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/414287/yes-liberals-are-less-patriotic-rich-lowry

 

It's typical of a certain kind of person to think that people who know more than them on a particular subject are weird. Since nobody here responds with any facts, I'll have to take it as an example of that phenomenon. 

[juansavage1]

Therefore, to be clear, there's an anti-American strain in leftist thought, i.e, they think the US is mostly a bad country and has been a bad influence in the world. These are the people for whom bombing a hospital isn't a mistake, but policy. They think that cities have racist policies by design.** They think detention camps are like concentration camps. They think the CIA tortures for fun. They think American capitalism has been an engine of misery, not prosperity. They think, like Zinn, that the US story is best told as groups of oppressed people fighting for their rights against the evil man (Marxism). They think the US should play a smaller role in the world. 

 

**One leftist trick that Jonah Goldberg pointed out is that when a liberal does something wrong, it's America's fault, but when a conservative does something wrong, it's conservatism's fault. The way to shut off this attack is to point out that it was Democrats who supported lynching and the KKK. It was Roosevelt who detained the Japanese. It was Wilson who segregated the Army. It was mayor Daley who ran Chicago when it had the racist policies. 

 

Sanders, socialist, Communist sympathizer, and member of Marxist groups, comes from this tradition. 

[Spirit]

I think Juan is trying to say we're all weird. 

[Crampknees]

The question was whether Dems hate America. I was merely stating that leftists (not Dems) are generally anti-American and that that's a worldwide phenomenon. That's my experience from knowing lots of leftists, having been one, and what I've read from lefties themselves. Of course, if you love to go to your lefty friends' houses for 4th of July, wear flag pins, sing patriotic songs and recite passages from the founding documents, then your experience is different than mine. 

First, this is how you color inside the lines:  If you vote Dem you are a lib which means your are a leftist, which means you are anti-American.  

 

Second, I must hate America because I refuse to be geeked out enough to go to one of your parties singing patriotic songs and quoting the founders. I am so glad my experience is different than yours. 

[juansavage1]

Oh, and it was Obama and his generals who ordered the attack on the hospital. You're not weird. Very few people like to discuss this stuff at a philosophical level. I just thought that the participants of a political forum would. 

[Glen]

Patriotism is ****ing stupid. If you have to tell everyone you're a patriot or you wear it on your sleeve, you stand a good chance of being an asshole.

[Crampknees]

 if you love to go to your lefty friends' houses for 4th of July, wear flag pins, sing patriotic songs and recite passages from the founding documents, then your experience is different than mine. 

 

 

Juan listened to my advice from earlier about coming up with new material.  This was well done and what a troll should be able to whip up.  

[Spirit]

Patriotism is just a national version of supporting a sports team.  Some people wear American flags the same way I wear Angels gear.  Wearing that gear doesn't make me an asshole.

 

 

 

There are many other things that make me an asshole, but that's not one of them.

[Glen]

But if it's Red Sox gear...

Yeah, point taken. I exaggerated a bit.

[Glen]

Maybe next year instead of my annual "rooting for a team is like being in an abusive relationship" article I can compare it to patriotism.

Change is good.

[juansavage1]

First, this is how you color inside the lines:  If you vote Dem you are a lib which means your are a leftist, which means you are anti-American.  

 

Second, I must hate America because I refuse to be geeked out enough to go to one of your parties singing patriotic songs and quoting the founders. I am so glad my experience is different than yours. 

I know people don't have anything to say when they deliberately misinterpret what I said. I specifically said that there are different groups within each party. The Dems used to be dominated by Southerners, union workers, and others who are generally not leftists. Right now, the Dem party is dominated intellectually by Marxists of various stripes (gender, race, class) and environmentalists. You can tell because unions supported the pipeline and the Dems gave in to rich environmentalists like in Hollywood and Tom Steyer and nixed the deal. The Dem also have captive groups of non-Marxists: single women, blacks, public unions, and Mexicans.  

 

Marxists are anti-American because they're Marxists, not because they're Dems. Since we have a two-party system, most Marxists are in the Dem party. 

 

You should read about the battles in the early seventies between the traditional Dems and the "New Left," an actual term that I didn't make up. 

 

This is speaking generally, of course, which smart people do when they have to make a point. 

[Glen]

Juan is what dumb people think a smart person sounds like.

[arch stanton]

My time outside of America has me convinced that it is the greatest country around and my time inside America has me convinced that there's a ton of room for improvement. Am I a lefty, a patriot, or just full of shit? I'm thinking all 3 could be true.

[Angel Oracle]

We could always move to that new country popularized just recently on Monday Night RAW:   MexAmerica. 

[Puget Sound Angel]

Patriotism = militarism, jingoism and nationalism

[Puget Sound Angel]

Even Megyn Kelly is calling the GOP candidates a bunch of little b!tches.

[Spirit]

Few things make me giggle as much as the old "Even ____ says _____ about ____ ."  line.   Just good, good stuff!

[juansavage1]

It's funny that almost all objections are non-substantive. People brought up whether Sanders is anti-American. We can just say that we can't accuse other people of thinking things that they don't admit to. That means no "these people are sexist, racist, homophobes." I can live with that. If we do allow that game, then I'm going to play with history, reason, and facts. If there are American anti-Americans, then they would be Bill Ayers, et.al. and their fans because they actually say anti-American things and claim allegiance to a supranational idea at odds with the US. If it's impossible to be anti-American, then I guess nobody is, including American Marxists. 

[Glen]

You're the only one that wondered if Sanders is anti-American, whatever that means. Are you more than one person?

[juansavage1]

You're the only one that wondered if Sanders is anti-American, whatever that means. Are you more than one person?

I was responding, but it doesn't matter. Sanders comes from an anti-American tradition. There's a distinction to be made between criticism and hatred, just like somebody can criticize a person without hating them or just hate them. Somebody can point out problems within a group of people or they can just hate them. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by Juan Savage

[TobiasFunke]

Didn't we already establish that you never see Jay and Juan in the same room?