The Beaneballers

[Lou]

Thanks for illustrating the point! You clearly have an issue with Beane (butthurt?). What I'm wondering is, can you see how he has been successful? Or are you only able to see the negative and inflate that to some kind of skewed total picture? 

 

"Beane has done great things...""

 

- floplag

Edited September 25, 2014 by Lou

[Inside Pitch]

Why spend stupid amounts of money if you don't have to? They've won more games than any team in the AL the past three seasons, without buying albert Pujols or Miguel Cabrera or Justin verlander etc etc

You think arte wouldn't spend less money for the same product?

 

 

If you're cool with spurts of quality to excellent seasons followed by spurts in the second division then by all means why spend money...  As far as Arte goes -- I doubt there is an owner in MLB that wouldn't prefer to get  more while spending less.   

[HaloMagic]

"Beane has done great things...""

- floplag

AJ quoted Blarg in his reponse, not floplag.

[HaloMagic]

If you're cool with spurts of quality to excellent seasons followed by spurts in the second division then by all means why spend money... As far as Arte goes -- I doubt there is an owner in MLB that wouldn't prefer to get more while spending less.

Spending money got us something very similar.

[Hollyw00d]

If you're cool with spurts of quality to excellent seasons followed by spurts in the second division then by all means why spend money...  As far as Arte goes -- I doubt there is an owner in MLB that wouldn't prefer to get  more while spending less.

How about the rays? Or the cardinals? They don't have a massive payroll.

[floplag]

 

 

Believe it or not, you wrote that. Not me.

 

and as said, where does any of that suggest they don't win at all, never have won, or never will win without signing big name stars.. which is what you seem to have gotten from it?

Edited September 25, 2014 by floplag

[Angel Oracle]

At some point, it figured that mixing and matching talent with lower salaries would only work for so long.

Amazed though that it took 2 years and 4 months before the AL caught up to it.

[Blarg]

The Cardinals are 13th with over $110 million in payroll and are not practicing money-back tactics.

[floplag]

"Beane has done great things...""

 

- floplag

if your going to quote me, please include the complete quote and context...  that went on to say that i think his view may have hurt the game as much as helped it is many ways.

thx

[HaloMagic]

Haha. Flop. I never understand him.

[HaloMagic]

The Cardinals are 13th with over $110 million in payroll and are not practicing money-back tactics.

Really though, who is practicing money-back tactics besides Costco.

[Hollyw00d]

and as said, where does any of that suggest they don't win at all, never have won, or never will win without signing big name stars.. which is what you seem to have gotten from it?

Hmmm well I think saying "moneyball is a failure" is saying enough.

[HaloMagic]

If we don't win the World Series then dipotoball is a failure.

[Hollyw00d]

"Moneyball? LOL. Nubz. Runnyball."

[Blarg]

Really though, who is practicing money-back tactics besides Costco.

 

My phone's autocorrect, even it refuses to believe in Moneyball.

[ettin]

He traded himself into a position where there was nothing to call up. That is not a smart move regardless of what he got in trade and actually a lot of what he got was no better than replacement value or in other words farm talent for MLB money.

WWe always talk about the Angels five year plan and how some deals and trades are short term in value or maybe long term but it always seems to relate to what the position of the team will be in five years.

The A's have only one guy signed for longer than 2015. That is Coco noodle arm Crisp. Doesn't sound like much of long term planning on Beane's part. Like he went all in entirely for this one season and the A's are back to rebuilding.

Maybe that sounds like genius to some.

Eric you were talking about Money Ball in your other post, not organizational depth. Two different things that occasionally overlap.

Finding "economic value" is different from a discussion on having position and rotation/bullpen depth. The latter was certainly damaged by the former.

I wasn't arguing about the latter. It's okay to have an opinion too Eric even if it wildly differs from another persons.

[Inside Pitch]

How about the rays? Or the cardinals? They don't have a massive payroll.

The Rays spent a decade in last place -- they've had a nice run but let's see where they go moving forward...  They don't have much of a farm system and they are currently a 4th place club in a bad AL East.  The Cards are nothing like the A's and they do spend money, maybe not the kind of money the Angels have spent but they have been over 110 Mil in each of the last three seasons and at 105 million the year before that.   They are IMO about as close to a happy medium as there is in MLB.

 

Spending money got us something very similar.

 

 

Spending money probably kept them from going on a five year run of .500 or below seasons.   No doubt the locals would have been totally cool with the team choosing to scale back payroll and rebuilding for a half decade.  

[Inside Pitch]

If we don't win the World Series then dipotoball is a failure.

That's actually not far from the truth from some people's POV.   

[Blarg]

Eric you were talking about Money Ball in your other post, not organizational depth. Two different things that occasionally overlap.

Finding "economic value" is different from a discussion on having position and rotation/bullpen depth. The latter was certainly damaged by the former.

I wasn't arguing about the latter. It's okay to have an opinion too Eric even if it wildly differs from another persons.

 

Being a GM is not living a single philosophy then making excuses for failings. You can find some economic value in a Walmart, you just may not find what you need and waste your money on what's available on the shelf. That is not smart shopping. In this discussion we are canvassing all aspects of Beane's reputation and philosophy over real results.

[ettin]

Being a GM is not living a single philosophy then making excuses for failings. You can find some economic value in a Walmart, you just may not find what you need and waste your money on what's available on the shelf. That is not smart shopping. In this discussion we are canvassing all aspects of Beane's reputation and philosophy over real results.

Yes but I was specifically commenting on finding market efficiencies and then suddenly I'm being grouped into thinking Beane is a genius. I was focusing in on one particular canvassing subject.

[stormngt]

I was about the same thing. He may not be the genius some say. But he had done a hell of a job.

Beane is the Jeter of baseball GMs - he's both wildly overrated and underrated and everyone seems to have a strong opinion on him one way or the other.

[floplag]

Hmmm well I think saying "moneyball is a failure" is saying enough.

please show me in the 2 pieces you quoted where i said that ?

 

you know what, ill help to avoid anymore confusion on your part, what i said was "using players who are castoffs is part of the reason it fails, there are reasons why they are castoffs."  now, how in your mind you got to an absolute condemnation you claimed i said is just the usual dance

now, as to what that means, not one team in the so-called moneyball era has won the title using low payroll and castoffs... divisions yes, WS, no.   if you can prove me wrong and show the numerous examples of teams who have won a WS title under moneyball... please, feel free.   ill give you another hint, you cant.

 

[HaloMagic]

What do you consider low payroll and what do you consider castoffs? I'd love to try to answer but I don't want you to just tell me that "that's not a castoff" or "that team didn't have a low payroll".

[Blarg]

Yes but I was specifically commenting on finding market efficiencies and then suddenly I'm being grouped into thinking Beane is a genius. I was focusing in on one particular canvassing subject.

 

Just following your statement about selling what is viewed as high valued commodities and the repercussions. Not really putting you in with the Beanballers. Funny part is that I agree with fiscal responsibility in all businesses but what the A's do is undermine themselves going cheap on player personnel and pocketing a pretty substantial profit while crying poverty. In a word, disingenuous.

[Lou]

AJ quoted Blarg in his reponse, not floplag.

 

d'oh!

 

I'm and idoit

Apologies to AJ