The Beaneballers

[Bruce Nye]

I'm sure the A's faithful can rationalize how the Beane trade for Lester was fantastic, but wasn't he supposed to win games like this one?

 

5 ERs?

[Angelsjunky]

What's the beef with Billy Beane around here, anyway? The scrutiny is ridiculous. The guy has done amazing things with a budget far less than the Angels. No one is perfect, but there's no argument against him at least being one of the best GMs of the 21st century.

[The God of Runs]

He hasn't necessarily failed, yet. A's are pretty much assured a playoff spot. Yeah, it's a one and done situation. But, say they win that game. The A's staff will be tough to beat.

[Blarg]

What's the beef with Billy Beane around here, anyway? The scrutiny is ridiculous. The guy has done amazing things with a budget far less than the Angels. No one is perfect, but there's no argument against him at least being one of the best GMs of the 21st century.

 

Pretty much it is a push back to those that have exalted him over the last 10+ years for not really getting anything accomplished more than any other GM other than get a movie made about a failed season. Beane had a book written about what other GMs were already doing and suddenly people that never followed stats decided that Beane was a super genius because he was attributed to picking players for certain stats rather than what they believed were the traditional methods of finding players.

 

Now, quickly, name all of the players Beane drafted that were wildly successful from 2002 to present day. Now, how many of them did he trade away for players that were less valuable. Now, how many players on his current roster are from the A's minor leagues, drafted and groomed by the A's. Rookie hazing day included one player this season. One.

 

Beane and the A's ownership decided long ago to pay themselves before paying for players. Their budget is based on personal gain and not players on the field so I just can't see how there is some reason to praise his giving himself profit sharing raises each year while letting go quality players. Also this is the same group that has zero ability to get themselves out of that pit of a stadium while a half dozen other teams have upgraded since he took over.

 

But hey, those of us that see Beane differently I guess don't get it. We are haters.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Eric Notti

[disarcina]

The Cespedes trade was very un-Beane  like. I think there is going to be some  bad news for Cespedes this off-season.

 

despite that, what Beane did here was something he has NOT done before (and he pretty much admits it) -- Moneyball (the book) talks about how Beane  plays to stay competitive the first half of the season and then makes deals to improve the team down the stretch the second half -- he's been very, very successful with this -- but he admits -- that approach is focused on the second half of the season and NOT the playoffs.....hence the second half team he builds is not a team built for a playoff run.

 

With the deal for Lester, he's made a deal for the playoff run and despite the post-Cespedes funk the A's fell into, chances are they are still going to make the playoffs and now the A's have a rotation that matches up pretty well.........if they win the Wild Card game, they are in the ALDS and off to the races --- still without their offensive spark plug, Cespedes, though.......

[Blarg]

If he was a genius he would build a successful team to play the regular and post season. The two teams are not mutually exclusive of each other. He went into this season with basically the same team as last year then went overkill on trades without having any minor league depth to fall back on. The Angels that have been ripped for having nothing in the minors are playing those guys and beating the A's with them in the field and on the mound.

[RallyMo]

The A's could easily catch fire and win it all.

[Bruce Nye]

Tell me about Beane's WS success.  I think only when he was an assistant to the GM did they make the WS - none since.  So I argue with the very "successful" adjective.  I heartily agree that he took players off the heap and they performed.

 

As to the book (and the movie), there was no mention of the pitching staff he had - Hudson, Mulder and Zito.  They were filthy, but the focus was on his advanced offensive stat dynamics.

 

Let's see how he does in 2015 when the AL West top to bottom have very good teams.

[Blarg]

The A's could easily catch fire and win it all.

 

The A's already look like they caught fire and are a smoldering pile.

[Blarg]

Tell me about Beane's WS success.  I think only when he was an assistant to the GM did they make the WS - none since.  So I argue with the very "successful" adjective.  I heartily agree that he took players off the heap and they performed.

 

As to the book (and the movie), there was no mention of the pitching staff he had - Hudson, Mulder and Zito.  They were filthy, but the focus was on his advanced offensive stat dynamics.

 

Let's see how he does in 2015 when the AL West top to bottom have very good teams.

 

The A's haven't been to a World Series since 1990, the year after he was released by the Oakland A's.

[DW711]

I'm sure the A's faithful can rationalize how the Beane trade for Lester was fantastic, but wasn't he supposed to win games like this one?

 

5 ERs?

 

Fine

 

It was three, btw and could have been even less if Donaldson picked that ball back in the 3rd inning.

 

Eleven starts since he's got here and they've all been quality.

 

All I heard is that Cespedes got pissed when asked to play center a couple times with Crisp hurt. That and he only had one year left on his deal.

 

Beane way overvalued Gomes. He might be the worst player on the team and that might be saying something.

 

The fact that he's a clean up hitter on any line up in the league is a joke.

[Blarg]

Ok, but it was 5 runs scored off of Lester. Donaldson has been the third baseman all season so you pay for stupid the same as the Angels with Freese that rolled a ball to Ianetta on a relay, missing an out at home plate and extending the A's one inning of offense. The A's never should have scored more than 2 runs today and WTF is Melvin pinch hitting with Callaspo?

Edited September 25, 2014 by Eric Notti

[Blarg]

Oh, and remember when everyone was saying how Oakland had it easy the last series of the year against Texas. Well, Texas beat their ass in a sweep in Oakland and now they have to travel to Texas to take on a team that wants to spit on everyone from last place. Currently the Rangers are hot with an 11-4 record in their last 15 games. Oakland could still fall out of the Wildcard.

[Hollyw00d]

Beane has done a lot of things right. However, the A's success certainly hasn't been overnight, they went through a significant rebuilding period and mistakes were made during that time. No GM is perfect obviously, these guys dont have crystal balls and hindsight is always 20/20.

The fact that the A's have 1 playoff series win under his watch does tarnish the picture a bit, but he can't go out on the field and win the games for them. His players have to perform, and in the limited October sample size, they have not. But for me, that doesn't mean he or the A's have been a complete failure. The fact is, a lot of front offices now use the methods that he helped legitimize, including ours. And there a lot of teams that have won a lot of games using those methods.

its not perfect, no system is. But "moneyball" or whatever you want to call it, has changed the way teams, and fans, view the game and its players

[SoCALkid]

The A's could easily catch fire and win it all.

Lol

[disarcina]

well, the fact that Beane has NOT had playoff success sort of proves the point I was making above.

 

Moneyball, the book (and it's been a while since I've read it, perhaps 10 years) starts with Beane pacing below the stands in the Oakland Coliseum during a playoff game (which the A's lose -- and Beane saying his Moneyball method -- this was before it was called that -- 'doesn't work in the playoffs')

 

The very, very successful part of Beane I referenced above is that he has taken if not a small market (there's varying opinions on whether the East Bay/ Bay Area is a 'small market') then a low budget like small market team to be competitive year after year with a payroll sometimes less than half the size of the teams the A's are competing against.

 

Beane, in the book, states he tries to keep the team competitive to the All Star Break and then in the second half combs the waiver wire and inquires of other teams trying to pick up several players to shore up some weaknesses for the second half -- in this approach, he's been stellar over the years -- no doubt about that.

 

and then, there's the playoffs and the A's either haven't been there or when they make it there, have not fared well........

 

that's why the Lester for Cespedes deal is something new for Billy Beane -- and if the A's make the playoffs and it looks like they will, if they win the Wild Card play in game, they could be real tough but will need to get some great pitching because their offense post - Cespedes doesn't do much and certainly they're not manufacturing runs these days.

[DW711]

Oh, and remember when everyone was saying how Oakland had it easy the last series of the year against Texas. Well, Texas beat their ass in a sweep in Oakland and now they have to travel to Texas to take on a team that wants to spit on everyone from last place. Currently the Rangers are hot with an 11-4 record in their last 15 games. Oakland could still fall out of the Wildcard.

 

I don't know why he pinch hit callaspo. Ask Melvin.

 

I'll give you 20-1 if the A's don't get into the wild card game.

 

Not cause I'm an A's fan, but because it's so remote that even they screw this up!

[disarcina]

well, with Seattle tanking the way they are - it's not so much as the A's GETTING INTO the Wild Card game, it's more about Seattle falling completely out of it to the benefit of KC and Oakland.

[Blarg]

It is remote but they have seemed to find a way to put themselves in that position and sometimes teams just fulfill their destiny, even if that is being the 1995 Angels. In order for the A's to blow it Seattle or Cleveland has to sweep and the A's get swept. Tall order for the two other teams to play better than they've been. Still... destiny.

 

I don't know why he pinch hit callaspo. Ask Melvin.

 

I'll give you 20-1 if the A's don't get into the wild card game.

 

Not cause I'm an A's fan, but because it's so remote that even they screw this up!

[Lou]

He hasn't necessarily failed, yet. A's are pretty much assured a playoff spot. Yeah, it's a one and done situation. But, say they win that game. The A's staff will be tough to beat.

 

haven't they had the staff since August 1st?  

[stormngt]

That only happens if Seattle sweeps the Angels.

Oh, and remember when everyone was saying how Oakland had it easy the last series of the year against Texas. Well, Texas beat their ass in a sweep in Oakland and now they have to travel to Texas to take on a team that wants to spit on everyone from last place. Currently the Rangers are hot with an 11-4 record in their last 15 games. Oakland could still fall out of the Wildcard.

[floplag]

regarding moneyball... isnt admitting that it doesn't work in the playoffs admitting that it basically doesn't work at all?  i mean, isnt that the goal, getting to the post season?

Beane has done great things, but i almost thing his success has hurt the game as much as helped it in many ways... its become a religious of sorts, strat-o-matic for the modern ages... for something that at the end of the day even its founder admits has flaws.   Its like Jesus coming out and saying his father was some guy in the Valey and we were all confused.

 

He has managed to stay relevant without payroll, and that is an achievement, no question, but recent seasons have absolutely exposed its flaws and now they themselves admitted it... i think its time to stop coming up with 87 new stats a year and start watching some games again..

[stormngt]

"87 new stats a year" love it

regarding moneyball... isnt admitting that it doesn't work in the playoffs admitting that it basically doesn't work at all? i mean, isnt that the goal, getting to the post season?

Beane has done great things, but i almost thing his success has hurt the game as much as helped it in many ways... its become a religious of sorts, strat-o-matic for the modern ages... for something that at the end of the day even its founder admits has flaws. Its like Jesus coming out and saying his father was some guy in the Valey and we were all confused.

He has managed to stay relevant without payroll, and that is an achievement, no question, but recent seasons have absolutely exposed its flaws and now they themselves admitted it... i think its time to stop coming up with 87 new stats a year and start watching some games again..

[Angelsjunky]

Pretty much it is a push back to those that have exalted him over the last 10+ years for not really getting anything accomplished more than any other GM other than get a movie made about a failed season. Beane had a book written about what other GMs were already doing and suddenly people that never followed stats decided that Beane was a super genius because he was attributed to picking players for certain stats rather than what they believed were the traditional methods of finding players.

 

Now, quickly, name all of the players Beane drafted that were wildly successful from 2002 to present day. Now, how many of them did he trade away for players that were less valuable. Now, how many players on his current roster are from the A's minor leagues, drafted and groomed by the A's. Rookie hazing day included one player this season. One.

 

Beane and the A's ownership decided long ago to pay themselves before paying for players. Their budget is based on personal gain and not players on the field so I just can't see how there is some reason to praise his giving himself profit sharing raises each year while letting go quality players. Also this is the same group that has zero ability to get themselves out of that pit of a stadium while a half dozen other teams have upgraded since he took over.

 

But hey, those of us that see Beane differently I guess don't get it. We are haters.

 

Thanks for illustrating the point! You clearly have an issue with Beane (butthurt?). What I'm wondering is, can you see how he has been successful? Or are you only able to see the negative and inflate that to some kind of skewed total picture? I'm also wondering if you are able or willing to put Angels GMs (other than Reagins; he's an easy target) under such scrutiny?

 

As always, the truth is somewhere between extremes - Beane has done remarkable things with a pretty tight budget, but also has been able to put together that squad that could win it all. But his career isn't over, let alone the season. And your view is clearly on one extreme and, frankly, I don't see anyone here touting some kind of blind Beane fanboyism. I think some, myself included, admire his ability to find mediocre players that somehow have good years for the Athletics, and in turn create a perennial contender with a much smaller payroll than the big market teams. This doesn't mean that I don't think he makes mistakes, or that he is some kind of God of Baseball Nerdery. To some in the serious sabermetric community he probably is, but I'm not one of them.

[Angelsjunky]

It is also worth noting that, including this year, Beane's Athletics have made the postseason three of the last four years, while the Angels it has been just 2014 - and with a much larger budget. That means something, doesn't it? He must be doing something  right.