The Beaneballers

[DW711]

Let me get you guys back on track.

 

The A's are atrocious.

Edited September 26, 2014 by DW711

[Angels]

The M's tanked so hard these last few weeks. 5-11 in their last 16 games to bail the A's out.

Shame, because this A's collapse should've ended properly.

[Angelsjunky]

AJ, the cheapest talent is your minor league. There was only one guy on the A's squad for rookie hazing this season. Everyone else is a late 20's early 30's guy brought in by trade of their minor league talent. It's not really moneyball to fill a roster with veteran cast-offs.

How many rookies, or close to rookie (Calhoun I think was only three games over the limit last season) have the Angels used this season to supplement their lineup? Rookie hazing looked like a pretty good sized softball team this season with 12 guys dressed up including Shoemaker as an Arab Sheik.

Weren't we the team without a good farm system because our guys don't use the advanced metrics that the A's do?

Beane has had a great PR career. His early success was based on a team he didn't build. His long drought was his creation by selling the wrong pieces. His current success has been predicated on a weak AL West and just plain getting lucky spinning the wheel of chance with rosters until he found this group of misfits but he spun it once too often with Lester, trading five days for one.

There are too many excuses made for Beane by guys who really want to believe he changed the industry but the fact us he copied others, even took their people like DePodesta and let an author build a myth around what he was doing. Like he was a pioneer when in reality he us just a guy turned lose with a mismanaged franchise and allowed to put years of mediocrity on the field without getting fired, like most of the other GMs in the last fifteen years.

 

Actually it IS part of the "moneyball strategy" to fill your roster with veteran cast-offs, if we equate Beane's philosophy with moneyball. It is another form of cheap talent that has a good chance of over-performing expectations (and salary).

 

But the rest of your reply is kind of telling. You seem to think that giving Beane a head-nod is akin to bashing the Angels. Can't we appreciate what Beane is able to do AND love the Angels, even appreciate Dipoto? These things aren't mutually exclusive.

 

Anyhow, Beane isn't perfect - but I think he's clearly one of the better GMs in the game over the last 15 years.

[Bruce Nye]

Dipoto will win MLB Exec of the  Year.  No one can predict 3/5th of the rotation (and arguably 4/5th of the rotation) going down and still having the best record in the MLB.

 

I'm not sure if it is Dancing With Wolves or smoke and mirrors, but this has been an unbelievable ride and who knows how it will end!

[2112]

Surprised that no one brought up how many A's have been tied to steroids, or flopped after leaving the organization.

[Blarg]

Surprised that no one brought up how many A's have been tied to steroids, or flopped after leaving the organization.

 

Giambi, McGuire, Zito, Conseco, Mulder, Appier, and Isringhausen all have World Series rings, after leaving the A's.

 

I think Conseco hocked his by now.

[Hollyw00d]

There's a lot of great players and teams that have played this game and dont have a WS ring. Doesn't mean they were failures or make them any less great.

its extremely hard to win a WS. You have to be both lucky and good. And healthy.

[Blarg]

Or be Luis Polonia and get lucky being a bench player on 3 World Series teams.

[RallyMo]

You can say that about any PO team.

That's pretty much my point.

You can't write off any team that makes the playoffs.

[arch stanton]

I just have trouble understanding what the end goal is for the A's. They had won 2 division titles and were owning the league this season when he started going apeshit for SP's. Look at what he throws into the middle of his infield and then tell me he needed 3 SPs more than he needed a competent 2B, not to mention how bad they look against LHPs now that they try to pass Gomes off as Cespedes. He blew up a team that was dominating the league and now has to cling to 2nd WC by the grace of Jack Zduriencik's prowess in collecting offensive talent.

[floplag]

What do you consider low payroll and what do you consider castoffs? I'd love to try to answer but I don't want you to just tell me that "that's not a castoff" or "that team didn't have a low payroll".

 

here is the list of all WS winners since us in 02 which is also considered the birth of moneyball so to speak:

2013    Boston Red Sox        150M

2012    San Francisco Giants    117M

2011    St. Louis Cardinals    105M

2010    San Francisco Giants    118M

2009    New York Yankees    201M

2008    Philadelphia Phillies    98M

2007    Boston Red Sox        143M

2006    St. Louis Cardinals    88M

2005    Chicago White Sox    75M

2004    Boston Red Sox        125M

2003    Florida Marlins        63M

2002    Anaheim Angels         61M

 

 

Of those teams, unless you count the Cardinals with Pujols, or the White Sox with Konerko/Pierzinski etc... as moneyball teams, which i certainly would not... no moneyball team has EVER won a WS.  We certainly werent in '02, and the Marlins  the year after us were a team with a ton of stars so thats out the window

My point, since you seem to have missed it isnt that they dont win games, but that they dont win titles, which is at the end of the day the goal of every team.

[bloodbrother]

The M's tanked so hard these last few weeks. 5-11 in their last 16 games to bail the A's out.

Shame, because this A's collapse should've ended properly.

 

The new wild card system helped bail the A's out of joining the ranks of other big collapses in MLB history

[stormngt]

Boston used the moneyball principles in 2004. at least that is what the movie said.

here is the list of all WS winners since us in 02 which is also considered the birth of moneyball so to speak:

2013 Boston Red Sox 150M

2012 San Francisco Giants 117M

2011 St. Louis Cardinals 105M

2010 San Francisco Giants 118M

2009 New York Yankees 201M

2008 Philadelphia Phillies 98M

2007 Boston Red Sox 143M

2006 St. Louis Cardinals 88M

2005 Chicago White Sox 75M

2004 Boston Red Sox 125M

2003 Florida Marlins 63M

2002 Anaheim Angels 61M

Of those teams, unless you count the Cardinals with Pujols, or the White Sox with Konerko/Pierzinski etc... as moneyball teams, which i certainly would not... no moneyball team has EVER won a WS. We certainly werent in '02, and the Marlins the year after us were a team with a ton of stars so thats out the window

My point, since you seem to have missed it isnt that they dont win games, but that they dont win titles, which is at the end of the day the goal of every team.

Edited September 26, 2014 by stormngt

[floplag]

Boston used the moneyball principles in 2004. at least that is what the movie said.

 

 

with a 125M payroll?  thats not moneyball, thats moneybags

youre right, they say that, but come on, thats a giant leap to call any team with that payroll moneyball by any reasonable measure.  sound statistical analysis based roster moves are not moneyball, thats common sense.

The only 2 teams i would consider to be actual moneyball teams that have had any success are the A's, and the Rays.  Both have won divisions, but not championships.

[Blarg]

The Rays have at least made it to the World Series. They lost 4-1 but at least they made it. They did profit from having 10 years worth if high first round picks.

[floplag]

The Rays have at least made it to the World Series. They lost 4-1 but at least they made it. They did profit from having 10 years worth if high first round picks.

very true, they did make it, and have like the a's been very competitive generally speaking largely in part to those draft picks per the model with some very good drafts.

[HaloMagic]

What teams do you consider moneyball teams? Just the A's and the Rays?

[arch stanton]

Giving Manny Ramirez a $160 million contract is the epitome of moneyball, right?

[joeywings]

They're still waiting for a fast ball down the middle .

[floplag]

What teams do you consider moneyball teams? Just the A's and the Rays?

 

they are the only two that have been successful at it, the rest aren't really relevant to this discussion and would only prove the point.

however, right now i would probably also include the Cubs off the top of my head to a degree as trying to with their GM etc.. but if you are doing it and losing it then it isnt working so... meh.

 think most small markets are trying some variation on it... do they really have a choice?  Some have made better draft or gotten luckier than others, but few have actually made it work outside Oak and TB.

[Glen]

Billy Beane is the Derek Jeter of GMs.

[Hollyw00d]

Giving Manny Ramirez a $160 million contract is the epitome of moneyball, right?

 

 

that was several years before they began "moneyball" practices.

 

they won two world series, then started to imitate the yankees and handed out huge contracts to carl crawford, adrian gonzalez, josh beckett, etc. etc.  That's when they began to decline.  they blew up the team in 2012, and came back with a revamped team in 2013 by signing several players who weren't superstars but produced well relative to their contracts.  They won the world series again.

[arch stanton]

Ramirez was signed in 2001. The book was written in 2003. You define several differently than I do.

[mtangelsfan]

Billy Beane is the Derek Jeter of GMs.

 

without the championships.

[Hollyw00d]

Ramirez was signed in 2001. The book was written in 2003. You define several differently than I do.

 

 

they adopted the principles right after the book was released?  ok.

 

 

you failed to address the rest of my post as well.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Hollyw00d