OC Register: Why have so many Angels pitchers struggled this season?

[Stradling]

7 minutes ago, AngelsFaninGA said:

It does seem like they lack the resources/talent/bandwidth in the analytics department to make adjustments throughout the season. They put together a rough approach to start each season, then just ride it out for the entire year and reevaluate after the season since it sounds like they can't catch up to the speed of information in order to make adjustments on the fly. 

I disagree with this because last year Nevin was given the reigns and the defense changed and the pitching improved.  Or even this year, the team asked Detmers to change his approach.  Or we have even seen the Ohtani change his pitch choices.  So I do think they make adjustments, and even with most of those adjustments there isn’t success.

[Swordsman78]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

@Jeff Fletcher this is one of the best articles I have read in quite some time, even if it does paint guys I like a certain way.  It also shows that us fans really are simpletons and want to blame one person for when a team struggles or a part of the team struggles.  I think we were all excited about getting the guy from Driveline, but it seems as though the pitchers really don’t care for him if I read that right, or maybe a better way to put it is they don’t care for his input.  Wise is not the problem, but he could be part of the problem.  

I undervalued what a catcher brings to the table outside of what I can see, which at times were predictable pitch calling, or poor framing.  It’s obvious there is more to catching that what stats tell us, considering Martin Maldonado is still catching most of the games for Houston and Jeff Mathis caught for 17 years.  I didn’t think about the role Stassi and Suzuki could have played behind the scenes in the communication piece of game planning.  

I think Perry is being disingenuous when he says he was unaware of these problems.  I am sure he is aware, but its an easier answer than calling out a portion of the process.

As for the fixation on spin rate and strike outs, how bout you solve the actual problem.  Get a real catcher, maybe that is Stassi next year, with a AAAA type of catcher on the 40 man for next year to be the 3rd catcher.  Fix the infield defense, so you don’t have to strike everyone out.  Get feedback from the players on how they want to receive the data.  If it is still in their heads when they are pitching, then the focus on data was either over focused or focused on too much just prior to taking the mound.  For those of you who’ve been around awhile will remember the big blow up that ultimately lead to Dipoto bitching out, was over him coming into the clubhouse and putting information in front of the players and Scioscia telling him there’s a time and place for that.

Oh and everyone is to blame, the coaches, the analytic guys, the manager and the pitchers themselves.  It’s the big leagues and it is a performance based league.  Gotta get outs.

Excellent take.  Your much more coherent and on point after the buzz wears off.

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

Excellent take.  Your much more coherent and on point after the buzz wears off.

Dude just shut the hell up.  Your boy made some awful decisions last night and has regularly this season.  

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

think we were all excited about getting the guy from Driveline, but it seems as though the pitchers really don’t care for him if I read that right, or maybe a better way to put it is they don’t care for his input.  

I think they all really do like him and think he’s very good at what he does. He’s great at making your “stuff” better. But the guy he replaced had 40 years of real world “how to pitch” experience. 

[Stradling]

14 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I think they all really do like him and think he’s very good at what he does. He’s great at making your “stuff” better. But the guy he replaced had 40 years of real world “how to pitch” experience. 

Ok, that makes more sense.  So do they now find a baseball lifer that can translate what he is teaching to the players?

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

Ok, that makes more sense.  So do they now find a baseball lifer that can translate what he is teaching to the players?

Or just a catcher that can take their in game stuff and help them attack batters.  

[Inside Pitch]

On 8/17/2023 at 6:35 PM, Swordsman78 said:

Except that coaches who criticize "analytics" are provided with a quick ticket to the exit door.  Ala Mr. Scoccia

Mike Scioscia was around for 20 years and didn't criticize analytics.  You're guilty of repeating the exact sort of social media idiocy you claim others are doing in defense of analytics.

[Swordsman78]

1 minute ago, Inside Pitch said:

Mike Scioscia was around for 20 years and didn't criticize analytics.  You're guilty of repeating the exact sort of social media idiocy you claim others are doing in defense of analytics.

Only because he inherited a group of guys that won the 2002 World series which bought him about 15 years.   Eventually he was run out due to not bowing to the data guys.

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

Only because he inherited a group of guys that won the 2002 World series which bought him about 15 years.   Eventually he was run out due to not bowing to the data guys.

Nope. 

[Inside Pitch]

2 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

Only because he inherited a group of guys that won the 2002 World series which bought him about 15 years.   Eventually he was run out due to not bowing to the data guys.

Do you have a mask you slip on, or do you go through all the effort of applying clown make-up before posting?  

[Stradling]

8 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Do you have a mask you slip on, or do you go through all the effort of applying clown make-up before posting?  

Imagine spending as much time on baseball as he does and all that time adds up to that level of understanding the game. Just wow. 

[BTH]

2 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I think they all really do like him and think he’s very good at what he does. He’s great at making your “stuff” better. But the guy he replaced had 40 years of real world “how to pitch” experience. 

My question is why couldn’t they just add Hezel while also keeping Chiti on the MLB coaching staff?

A lot of teams have 3 pitching coaches, so why couldn’t the Angels?

Leave Chiti as bullpen coach and bring Hezel in as assistant pitching coach.

[Inside Pitch]

3 minutes ago, Trendon said:

My question is why couldn’t they just add Hezel while also keeping Chiti on the MLB coaching staff?

A lot of teams have 3 pitching coaches, so why couldn’t the Angels?

Leave Chiti as bullpen coach and bring Hezel in as assistant pitching coach.

They are likely feeling their way through things.  Maybe thats the big takeaway from this season and they make those changes.  I don't want to sound like a broken record but these sorts of things are what ticks me off about them having wasted two seasons trying to play like it's 1985.

[Jeff Fletcher]

47 minutes ago, Trendon said:

My question is why couldn’t they just add Hezel while also keeping Chiti on the MLB coaching staff?

A lot of teams have 3 pitching coaches, so why couldn’t the Angels?

Leave Chiti as bullpen coach and bring Hezel in as assistant pitching coach.

I can’t answer that one. 

[gurn67]

Blown early leads. I started looking at games in which the Angels' offense staked they starting pitcher to a nice early lead, but the pitching couldn't hold it. 

I found 5 in the first 14 games. If the Angels had won even 2 of these games, they would have been 9-5 to start the season instead of 7-7. I know they say games don't matter in April, but there is a big difference in the confidence of a team that starts 9-5 versus a team that starts 7-7 and blew a bunch of games they should have won. That doesn't even include blowing the game on Opening Day. The Angels had a 78% chance, or higher, of winning in 13 of their first 14 games with just a blowout 11-2 loss against Seattle mixed in. They won 50%. That trend has continued most of the season.

These percentages are based on historical averages of teams in the same situation. Good and bad teams alike.

These are all early games they lost. They had a 78% chance of winning on Opening Day

April 7 Toronto 3-1 lead in the 4th 85% chance of winning

April 9 Toronto 6-0 lead in the 4th 98% chance of winning

April 10 Washington 4-1 lead in the 3rd. 83% chance of winning

April 14 at Boston 2-0 lead in the 2nd 79% chance of winning

April 15 at Boston 4-0 lead in the 1st 82% chance of winning. 

I gave up looking after that. 

[BTH]

2 minutes ago, gurn67 said:

April 7 Toronto 3-1 lead in the 4th 85% chance of winning

April 9 Toronto 6-0 lead in the 4th 98% chance of winning

April 10 Washington 4-1 lead in the 3rd. 83% chance of winning

April 14 at Boston 2-0 lead in the 2nd 79% chance of winning

April 15 at Boston 4-0 lead in the 1st 82% chance of winning. 

I gave up looking after that. 

I get what the numbers say, but a 2-0 lead in the 2nd doesn’t feel like it belongs in that group.

The April 9 game vs. Toronto is unacceptable.

That April 7 game seems like it might’ve been the one where O’Hoppe didn’t know what to call, with the HR by Bichette on the curve.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

On 8/17/2023 at 9:00 AM, AngelsWin.com said:

ANAHEIM — In the wake of Reid Detmers’ brilliant performance on Wednesday night, Angels manager Phil Nevin said it marked a watershed moment for the 24-year-old left-hander.

“He turned into a pitcher tonight,” Nevin said, referring to the fact that Detmers didn’t have his best stuff and accumulated only five strikeouts while carrying a no-hitter into the eighth inning.

Detmers agreed.

“I wasn’t really going out there for strikeouts or anything,” he said. “I was just trying to get deep into the game. That was the whole mindset. It was more about sequencing and just keeping them off-balance.”

It was exactly what Angels starters have been unable to do for most of this disappointing season.

Even though all of the key pitchers returned from a team that ranked ninth in the majors in ERA in 2022, the Angels have crashed to 21st this season.

The knee-jerk explanation that many fans have found most convenient is that pitching coach Matt Wise is the problem.

Wise was not available for comment because of a club policy limiting the subjects their coaches can address with the media. A handful of members of the organization, from those above Wise to the pitchers below him, all staunchly defended the third-year pitching coach, even when offered anonymity.

“He’s been awesome,” Detmers said. “I couldn’t have asked for anyone better.”

Nevin pointed out that Wise was the pitching coach when the Angels’ ERA improved from 22nd two years ago to ninth last year.

“I love the rapport he has with the pitchers, the way they respond to him,” Nevin said. “There are some guys that have taken some steps forward. I understand some guys have taken some steps back, but I don’t put that on Matt. Yes, coaching is a lot of it, but at this level, you gotta be a man and figure some things out on your own to be a professional.”

Obviously, each pitcher is ultimately responsible for his own performance. Given that so many Angels pitchers have regressed, it strains credulity to believe it’s a coincidence.

When pitchers and staff members were asked privately for their honest opinions, they had some theories about the reasons for the team-wide pitching failure.

Most of them agreed on one count.

There has been an organizational philosophy – one that comes “from the top,” not from Wise, a player insisted – to concentrate more on spin, velocity and movement instead of command and working through game situations.

Essentially, the focus was the opposite of what Detmers did on Wednesday night.

The shift is personified by a switch in the staff member who is No. 2, behind Wise, in running the pitching staff. Dom Chiti, who began his coaching career in the 1980s, was replaced as the bullpen coach by Bill Hezel, who came from Driveline to take his first job in professional baseball. Hezel’s specialty is helping pitchers improve their velocity, pitch shapes, spin and mechanics.

Left-hander Patrick Sandoval said the Angels definitely went too far in emphasizing raw stuff early in the season, but it became more balanced with the other elements of pitching about a month into the season.

“We’ve structured the pitching here in a way to emphasize both, I think in a good way,” he said. “It’s just a matter of us going out there and executing in games, and that’s where we fall short, for sure.”

One of the reasons the Angels were emphasizing pitch shapes, the pitchers said, is that the team was looking for more strikeouts. This year’s shift ban, plus the Angels’ overall weaker defensive infield, prompted the team to try to avoid contact.

The problem with that approach, the pitchers said, is it means too many deep counts, and too many breaking balls. The Angels rank 29th in the majors in fastball percentage.

Although the Angels were successful last year while also ranking 29th in fastballs, one pitcher suggested that perhaps this year the game plans have gotten too predictable for opposing hitters.

Each day the pitching plan is the product of the work of five to 10 people, including the pitcher, one or two catchers, Wise, Hezel and a number of analysts.

The result of that plan, some pitchers suggested, is too often inflexible, not allowing for the myriad ways that situations can change during a game. A handful of Angels pitchers are not allowed to shake off the catcher, the pitchers said.

The catchers calling those pitches are also a part of that equation, and the difference in experience behind the plate has been dramatic this season.

Chad Wallach has started 112 games at catcher over parts of seven major league seasons. Matt Thaiss, who played other positions for most of his minor league career, has started 73 major league games at catcher. This season Thaiss has started 62 games, and Wallach has started 44.

Last year the Angels’ catching duo of Max Stassi and Kurt Suzuki combined for 1,783 major league starts behind the plate over 26 seasons. Suzuki retired and Stassi has missed the entire season because of a hip injury and a family emergency.

“That’s a lot of years catching experience,” Sandoval said. “To be able to pick their brains day in and day out is something I really miss.”

General Manager Perry Minasian acknowledged the impact of losing Stassi and Suzuki, although he said he’s been pleased with Wallach and Thaiss.

“It’s tough to replace guys like Stassi and Suzuki, especially when you’re trying to develop young pitching,” Minasian said.

Minasian, however, said he was unaware of the other organizational issues that pitchers cited.

He said when the season is over they will “evaluate everything and do a full autopsy on everything. Every year you try to learn from different things and make improvements.”

Minasian said he believes that each individual pitcher who has struggled has his own reasons, most notably youth.

“It takes time for pitchers to settle into the major leagues and be consistent and start rolling off quality years, year in and year out,” Minasian said. “We knew that risk heading into the season with a young group. There are going to be ups and downs. It’s a young, talented group that I feel like is going to continue to get better the more experience they get.”

 

I guess, Slappy was right....

There is nothing wrong with bringing new ideas into to combine with your coaching staff... The problem comes when you toss it out the window and expect everyone to fit in the same box.

Organizational Pitching Philosophy and the over reaction and over analysis of the Analytical side of the true job of a pitcher. Whether Wise isn't communicating, or has ZERO say. His job is to communicate with Nevin or his higher up or in the Meetings if he isn't that's complacency! His job is to implement everything into a voice of confidence for the young pitchers!

Getting ahead early in the count, Strike One! Pitch down to contact and Job #1 is get outs in the fewest amount of pitches possible. To go deeper in the game.

The Gurus are great as they draw out the conversation that we simplified...

Even mechanics, core rotation, basic arm slot etc hasn't changed. But. What has changed is people that don't understand more than that don't understand the torque on the body in relation to over exertion injuries and failures of ligaments and tendons due to body structure. Or, spinning out and landing on your heal, flying open and dropping your elbow and pushing the ball to home plate.

Is Bad...

Overall, it's NOT HARD to see from the outside that Ohtani calls his own game and pitches. Everyone else has to fit in the Box!

You should reach out to Denny to be a part of the podcast everyone who has played the game sees it. They all talk. Some worry about their jobs.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

On 8/17/2023 at 12:23 PM, Chuckster70 said:

Totally overlooked in the difference between this years rotation vs. 2022

Everyone wanted Thaiss because of his potential bat, but besides just his poor catcher's ERA, he clearly misses so many borderline pitches because of a poor setup behind the dish which makes his attempt at pitch framing too obvious or too late.

He's batting just .222 with a .675 OPS.

He also sets up too early with a Runner on Second base.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

Perry's last sentence it's based on young pitchers growth eventually they will get it. 

 

And at that time they will be past their Arbitration years and Free Agents...