Find a way...

[Second Base]

The Angels need to get creative and find a way to get Luis Rengifo and Jo Adell in the lineup every night. 

It's easy right now for Rengifo because Fletcher and Rendon are out, but next year, he still needs to be playing everyday at 2B/SS. I know Minasian will be looking to upgrade the offense and SS/2B figure to be the main avenue for that, but I'd keep Rengifo playing everyday, even if it means transitioning Fletcher toward a super utility role where he's playing 70% of the time. I believe Rengifo's upside is worth it. 

And it won't be as easy for Adell. But at this point, I'm fine if they trade Walsh or Ward in the right deal. As long as the return is worth it, I feel like the sooner Adell can get enough AB's to make adjustments, the better. Both Adell and Marsh should be pretty good major leaguers, even if they aren't so at 23/24. As long as they are at 25+. 

[Slegnaac]

Next season needs to be the breakout season for Marsh and Adell.

[cals]

It doesn’t need to be creative.  Adell and Rengifo start, period.  There is absolutely no reason they should not at this point. If it means Marsh doesn’t play much or goes back to SLC, oh well.  He had an extended opportunity. Now Jo gets his chance which includes the right to suck for an extended period.  

[Second Base]

59 minutes ago, cals said:

It doesn’t need to be creative.  Adell and Rengifo start, period.  There is absolutely no reason they should not at this point. If it means Marsh doesn’t play much or goes back to SLC, oh well.  He had an extended opportunity. Now Jo gets his chance which includes the right to suck for an extended period.  

Marsh needs to stay up. His upside is just as high as Adell's, and denoting him to AAA would be equally as counterproductive as putting Adell in AAA. 

The Angels need both to grow into good players. 

Similar to Anderson, Edmonds, Salmon and Erstad. You don't hold any one of them down in favor of any other. You allow each to develop and become good ball players. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Second Base

[Angelsjunky]

I agree with you, Scotty, and would add Stefanic to the mix. I think both and Rengifo should be starting nearly every day so the Angels can assess what they have. If Stefanic continues his hitting and can field an adequate 2B, and Rengifo continues improving and can field SS, then next year they don't have to spend big on a free agent middle infielder, but can instead focus on depth and go with Rengifo/Stefanic, Fletcher and one or two free agents on the bench.

If the Angels don't feel confident in one of them, they can go big and after someone like Trea Turner.

As far as the outfield next year, if they don't trade Ward, I think they can try what they were presumably going to do at some point this year: a four-way platoon. People are calling in the end of Marsh's career too quickly; this is a guy who had almost no time in AAA -- 108 PA last year, and that's it -- and still has the talent to be a very good player. There's no reason he can't get plenty of time filling in for the other three, and getting his own share of starts. 

Remember, 162 x 3 = 484 starts in the OF, or an average of 121.5 GS for four players. I'd much rather see the Angels give those starts to Trout, Ward, Adell, and Marsh - and not Lagares/Thomas/Harrison/etc. Add in a few starts at DH, 1B, and coming in late, and they all should average 130 games played. And then adjust for injury, and pretty much all four can be full-time players when healthy.

 

[Second Base]

12 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

I agree with you, Scotty, and would add Stefanic to the mix. I think both and Rengifo should be starting nearly every day so the Angels can assess what they have. If Stefanic continues his hitting and can field an adequate 2B, and Rengifo continues improving and can field SS, then next year they don't have to spend big on a free agent middle infielder, but can instead focus on depth and go with Rengifo/Stefanic, Fletcher and one or two free agents on the bench.

If the Angels don't feel confident in one of them, they can go big and after someone like Trea Turner.

As far as the outfield next year, if they don't trade Ward, I think they can try what they were presumably going to do at some point this year: a four-way platoon. People are calling in the end of Marsh's career too quickly; this is a guy who had almost no time in AAA -- 108 PA last year, and that's it -- and still has the talent to be a very good player. There's no reason he can't get plenty of time filling in for the other three, and getting his own share of starts. 

Remember, 162 x 3 = 484 starts in the OF, or an average of 121.5 GS for four players. I'd much rather see the Angels give those starts to Trout, Ward, Adell, and Marsh - and not Lagares/Thomas/Harrison/etc. Add in a few starts at DH, 1B, and coming in late, and they all should average 130 games played. And then adjust for injury, and pretty much all four can be full-time players when healthy.

 

I think it's now our never for Stefanic as an Angel. I think Perry Minasian is going to feel the pressure to improve the offense this off-season. If Stefanic doesn't hit well immediately and keep hitting, then I feel as if Perry will spend for a big bat at SS or 2B. 

Now if it was me personally, I'd deal Walsh. As much as I like him, I think we can put Ward there and open up a spot for Adell, or, if Stefanic proves invaluable offensively, put him at 1B. And I don't care so much if it puts someone out of position. Erstad played 1B when necessary even as a gold glove outfielder. You do what you gotta do to get the best players in the game. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Second Base

[Angelsjunky]

22 minutes ago, Second Base said:

I think it's now our never for Stefanic as an Angel. I think Perry Minasian is going to feel the pressure to improve the offense this off-season. If Stefanic doesn't hit well immediately and keep hitting, then I feel as if Perry will spend for a big bat at SS or 2B. 

Now if it was me personally, I'd deal Walsh. As much as I like him, I think we can put Ward there and open up a spot for Adell, or, if Stefanic proves invaluable offensively, put him at 1B. And I don't care so much if it puts someone out of position. Erstad played 1B when necessary even as a gold glove outfielder. You do what you gotta do to get the best players in the game. 

I think we're on the same page. I also mentioned the idea of trading Walsh a few days ago, although to be honest, I think his trade value is limited. He has some, but his stock has gone down substantially. I mean, he's a first baseman with a 96 wRC+, and with a 0.2 WAR is pretty much a replacement player. I think he's better than that, and presumably he's been hit hard by whatever mental disease is running rampant on the team. But that doesn't exactly scream "a bat you want to bring in to help in the stretch run." I think the Angels would be lucky to get a 45 FV prospect for him.

That said, the Trade Value Simulator still has him at 20.6.

[Docwaukee]

Stefanic and Rengifo should have been playing every day since the beginning of June.  For the same reasons that you play Adell and Ward and Marsh.  

There is no reason in all of the world why Duffy, Velazquez, Whitefield, MacKinnon, Suzuki, Rojas, Mayfield, Wade, and Lagares should almost 850 plate appearances for this team.  That's 25% given to absolute scrubs.  First off, they never should have been in a position for this to happen, but once they got there, I can live with struggles from the young guys so they can cut their teeth and improve.  Having guys perform at the replacement level expected with almost zero chance of improvement or upside is criminal.  

[Angelsjunky]

24 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

Stefanic and Rengifo should have been playing every day since the beginning of June.  For the same reasons that you play Adell and Ward and Marsh.  

There is no reason in all of the world why Duffy, Velazquez, Whitefield, MacKinnon, Suzuki, Rojas, Mayfield, Wade, and Lagares should almost 850 plate appearances for this team.  That's 25% given to absolute scrubs.  First off, they never should have been in a position for this to happen, but once they got there, I can live with struggles from the young guys so they can cut their teeth and improve.  Having guys perform at the replacement level expected with almost zero chance of improvement or upside is criminal.  

Yep. This is one of the many baffling things about this season. To be fair, Stefanic got hurt when it would have made sense to call him up, Adell hasn't wowed in AAA, and Rengifo has been playing regularly since then. But still, as you say, I'd rather see the guys with a future struggle, then the Mayfields and Lagareses of the world.

I suppose the Angels were stuck on the idea of Proven Veterans. I guess.

Anyhow, clearly they've shifted to "playing for next year" mode, so we're probably done with Mayfield, Wade, Lagares, etc. 

[Inside Pitch]

7 hours ago, cals said:

It doesn’t need to be creative.  Adell and Rengifo start, period.  There is absolutely no reason they should not at this point. If it means Marsh doesn’t play much or goes back to SLC, oh well.  He had an extended opportunity. Now Jo gets his chance which includes the right to suck for an extended period.  

Spot on.

[Stradling]

I’m 100% on board with giving Adell RF for the rest of the year.  If that means Ward is 4th OF/1B so be it. If it means Marsh goes to AAA and gets his bat right, that’s fine. Hell if it means trading Ward or Walsh ok.  The Angels have three guys that consistently hit the ball hard, Trout, Ohtani and Adell. 
If Stefanic continues to get on base after his babip normalizes and Rengifo improves to being a major league regular that puts Fletcher in his utility/super sub role which has ACTUAL value compared to being a good glove shitty bat. 
All that being said if they give them the rest of the year and they perform well enough to secure those roles going into next year, we could be in the exact same spot next year.  Instead of failing with cheap additions like Wade, Velazquez, Duffy, Legares, we’d fail with cheap in house options of Marsh, Adell, Rengifo, Stefanic. However we’d be in even a worse spot, because we wouldn’t have our cheap in house options to fall back on.  The team will need to bring in a very good middle infielder with a resume of success or a very good outfielder with a resume of success. 

[Angel Oracle]

10 hours ago, Second Base said:

Marsh needs to stay up. His upside is just as high as Adell's, and denoting him to AAA would be equally as counterproductive as putting Adell in AAA. 

The Angels need both to grow into good players. 

Similar to Anderson, Edmonds, Salmon and Erstad. You don't hold any one of them down in favor of any other. You allow each to develop and become good ball players. 

Yep

Trade Walsh in the off-season, and Ward moves to 1B like Erstad did?

In the meantime, Walsh needs to sit for a week with this 8-58 funk he’s in.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Angel Oracle

[UndertheHalo]

Ya sure they need to find a way for Rengifo and Adell.  Also they need to find a way to keep Ohtani around.  They need to figure this out today if possible. 

[Chuck]

11 hours ago, cals said:

It doesn’t need to be creative.  Adell and Rengifo start, period.  There is absolutely no reason they should not at this point. If it means Marsh doesn’t play much or goes back to SLC, oh well.  He had an extended opportunity. Now Jo gets his chance which includes the right to suck for an extended period.  

100% @cals

[Chuck]

I'm starting to wonder if Marsh will be anything more than just a defensive first outfielder relegated to the 4th outfielder role. 

Way too many holes in his swing and terrible plate discipline in the big leagues. 

[tomsred]

13 hours ago, Slegnaac said:

Next season needs to be the breakout season for Marsh and Adell.

I don't think so.  They will still be very young, especially Adel.  They may not fully blossom until ages 26-28.

[Second Base]

32 minutes ago, tomsred said:

I don't think so.  They will still be very young, especially Adel.  They may not fully blossom until ages 26-28.

They need to be in their prime and hitting their performative ceiling between 26-32. They need to be solid regulars by 25-ish. Which means they need to take their licks at 23 and 24, and given that Marsh and Adell are 24 and 23 right now, that means they need to be playing everyday, right now, and learning. 

So next year, 2023, Marsh and Adell don't need to stars as much as we need to see growth to the point where they aren't liabilities anymore. They need to be productive regulars. 

[Slegnaac]

2 hours ago, tomsred said:

I don't think so.  They will still be very young, especially Adel.  They may not fully blossom until ages 26-28.

My reasoning is that 2023 could very well be the last season they have Ohtani.  They seriously need both of those guys to have above replacement level production in 2023.

[tomsred]

These are good points.  We need to see these guys improve and learn right now.  We are highly unlikely to make the playoffs, but these last 72 games are very important to see some progress from Adel and Marsh.  I really think the news is good so far on Adel, he's improving.  Unfortunately Marsh has declined since the beginning of the year offensively, but it's a waiting game to see if he can do the things to get himself back on track and progressing vs. declining.

[darctoon]

I think Adell definitely needs a good run, even if he falters.  The reality is that his value is at a low point right now, so his value in trades will be minimal.  You might as well let him sink or swim with it and see if he can figure it out.  There are moments where he looks balanced, with a good approach at the plate, and isn't over-aggressive, and there are moments where that doesn't show and he reverts.

I think, for the rest of this year, letting Rengifo play is just fine.  That said, barring some otherworldly hitting that has never shown itself, they should still go into the winter with the idea that they need to upgrade.  Rengifo's been around for a long time (easy to forget he entered the minors in 2014, was the return in the CJ Cron trade for you guys).  I think he's best as a utility/super-sub guy, but considering the lost season, giving him run is just fine (but it is sort of sad that he's batting in the middle of the order).

I actually wonder if a trip to AAA might do Marsh some good.  He seems to press at times, and he's too gifted to be flailing away.  Maybe he just needs to go down, relax, and rest, and then come up and get his AB's in August/September.

[Dave Saltzer]

Question for those willing to trade Walsh and are down on Marsh: Next year, it is very likely that they will ban the shift. So, how much more valuable would that make any lefty in the lineup? Lefties should all see a spike in BA and righties might see a slight drop with the ideas on the shift that have been discussed.

 

Eo shouldn't we hold onto lefties who might benefit quite a bit next year? 

 

I get the need and desire to get all the bat's in the lineup and giving dedicated time to Adell. But, I'm a bit more hesitant to trade away more lefties right now because they will probably benefit a lot more next year. 

[Stradling]

3 hours ago, Dave Saltzer said:

Question for those willing to trade Walsh and are down on Marsh: Next year, it is very likely that they will ban the shift. So, how much more valuable would that make any lefty in the lineup? Lefties should all see a spike in BA and righties might see a slight drop with the ideas on the shift that have been discussed.

 

Eo shouldn't we hold onto lefties who might benefit quite a bit next year? 

 

I get the need and desire to get all the bat's in the lineup and giving dedicated time to Adell. But, I'm a bit more hesitant to trade away more lefties right now because they will probably benefit a lot more next year. 

If Marsh or Walsh don’t change their approach the shift ban won’t make any difference as they strike out at a very high percent. I think I read Marsh has the highest k rate in the league. 

[Jason]

19 hours ago, Chuckster70 said:

I'm starting to wonder if Marsh will be anything more than just a defensive first outfielder relegated to the 4th outfielder role. 

Way too many holes in his swing and terrible plate discipline in the big leagues. 

I think so as well. Not a bad 4th OFer to have off the bench 

[Dtwncbad]

21 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Yep

Trade Walsh in the off-season, and Ward moves to 1B like Erstad did?

In the meantime, Walsh needs to sit for a week with this 8-58 funk he’s in.

I would not trade Walsh to have Ward be the 1B.

Ward can play all the OF, 3B and 1B.  He can rotate into the lineup many times a week giving players rest or filling in for nagging injuries, or strategically pinch hitting in a righty lefty situation.

Would it really be so terrible to have some depth that was actually decent?

[Second Base]

8 hours ago, Dave Saltzer said:

Question for those willing to trade Walsh and are down on Marsh: Next year, it is very likely that they will ban the shift. So, how much more valuable would that make any lefty in the lineup? Lefties should all see a spike in BA and righties might see a slight drop with the ideas on the shift that have been discussed.

 

Eo shouldn't we hold onto lefties who might benefit quite a bit next year? 

 

I get the need and desire to get all the bat's in the lineup and giving dedicated time to Adell. But, I'm a bit more hesitant to trade away more lefties right now because they will probably benefit a lot more next year. 

I don't think the shift is hurting Marsh. In the beginning of the season, his approach was so simple, hit the pitch wherever it is. And he did that. Then he got comfortable and started trying to drive the ball, and I don't think he was ready. 

Walsh though, he is hurt by the shift but he's also hurt by an inability to adjust. In the beginning of his breakout, his barrel % and hard hit rate were elite, and it occurred over an extended period of time, which gave us the impression that this could be him. 

I wouldn't trade Marsh. You have to let him develop. He's a 24 year old rookie, that if nothing else, is an exceptional defender and can fly around the bases.

Jared Walsh, I would trade. He's about to turn 29, and he's playing the easiest position to fill (1B) and has a .283 OBP.