So what would Maddon have done differently?

[tomsred]

1 hour ago, Kendo36 said:

Firing maddon was panic move by Perry. Now, without maddon this team feels even more lost. We were 10 games over .500 this season. SHould have had a longer leash. Very dumb. 

Exactly right, it was a move that Perry felt he had to do to take the pressure off of himself.  And he did it in a emotional state, and at a poor time.  As you said.....dumb!

[beatlesrule]

The Phillies are 14-2 since getting a new manager so Girardi was clearly the main problem. Angels record since Nevin is...... well depressing so Maddon was clearly not the main problem.

[failos]

7 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

The Phillies are 14-2 since getting a new manager so Girardi was clearly the main problem. Angels record since Nevin is...... well depressing so Maddon was clearly not the main problem.

@cals was right about Minsasian all along. He knew the fat guy is the problem.

[beatlesrule]

So would Maddon have done better than 5-7? Worse?

[Stradling]

On 6/9/2022 at 9:06 AM, Kendo36 said:

Firing maddon was panic move by Perry. Now, without maddon this team feels even more lost. We were 10 games over .500 this season. SHould have had a longer leash. Very dumb. 

No. 

[Stradling]

On 6/9/2022 at 10:46 AM, tomsred said:

Exactly right, it was a move that Perry felt he had to do to take the pressure off of himself.  And he did it in a emotional state, and at a poor time.  As you said.....dumb!

This just isn’t true. It puts more pressure on himself. 

[Stradling]

28 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

So would Maddon have done better than 5-7? Worse?

Whatever he would have done it would have been done with worse hair. 

[AngelfanIndiana]

Nevin is now 6-7

[DMVol]

I think the cumulative effect of 3 years of losing had as much to do with firing Maddon as a bad stretch in 2022…..

[beatlesrule]

3 hours ago, DMVol said:

I think the cumulative effect of 3 years of losing had as much to do with firing Maddon as a bad stretch in 2022…..

How about when Asmus was the manager? Scioscia after 2009?

[cals]

6 hours ago, AngelfanIndiana said:

Nevin is now 6-7

Nevin might break record if the angels play the mariners every day.

[gurn67]

I don't know where a manager has an effect on pitching and hitting, but the pitching was a complete dumpster fire for about 3 weeks. However, in the last 8 games, they've only given up more than 4 runs once. They've given up 2 runs, or less, in 5 of the last 7. They gave the offense a chance to win in almost all of those games.

The offense, with the exception of Trout, is still a complete mess. 18 runs in the last 8 games.

As a team 29th in batting average for June at .202. 29th in OPS by .001 Angels .590 Tigers .589

29th in OBP. 29th in SLG 28th in runs scored, but they've played 2 more games than the Tigers and three more than the A's. Otherwise, they'd probably be last.

June batting averages/OPS

Marsh .172/.536

Renigfo .135/.398

Velazquez .083/.331

Lagares .195/.482

Ward .195/.409

Wade .179/.384

The only guy with a batting average above .269 in the month of June? Adell was hitting .368 with an OPS of .903 when he was sent down.

That's pretty much every game that you have 5-6 guys who are lucky if they get a single, or walk in the game. I listen to a lot of MLB radio, and the opponents radio broadcasts, and I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Why wasn't the hitting coach fired before Maddon?" in the last two weeks. Almost every day.

[Stradling]

6 hours ago, beatlesrule said:

How about when Asmus was the manager? Scioscia after 2009?

What about it?

[Inside Pitch]

20 hours ago, beatlesrule said:

How about when Asmus was the manager? Scioscia after 2009?

Scioscia after 2009: 750-708 .514
Maddon: 157-172 .477
Ausmus: 72-90 .444

Maybe it's just me but Im guessing if either Maddon or Ausmus had put up a .514 winning percentage they likely keep their job.  Mediocrity would have been a big step up from complete awfulness.  Even MS's 160-164 over his final two seasons seems like a step up.

[Chuck]

11 hours ago, gurn67 said:

I don't know where a manager has an effect on pitching and hitting, but the pitching was a complete dumpster fire for about 3 weeks. However, in the last 8 games, they've only given up more than 4 runs once. They've given up 2 runs, or less, in 5 of the last 7. They gave the offense a chance to win in almost all of those games.

The offense, with the exception of Trout, is still a complete mess. 18 runs in the last 8 games.

As a team 29th in batting average for June at .202. 29th in OPS by .001 Angels .590 Tigers .589

29th in OBP. 29th in SLG 28th in runs scored, but they've played 2 more games than the Tigers and three more than the A's. Otherwise, they'd probably be last.

June batting averages/OPS

Marsh .172/.536

Renigfo .135/.398

Velazquez .083/.331

Lagares .195/.482

Ward .195/.409

Wade .179/.384

The only guy with a batting average above .269 in the month of June? Adell was hitting .368 with an OPS of .903 when he was sent down.

That's pretty much every game that you have 5-6 guys who are lucky if they get a single, or walk in the game. I listen to a lot of MLB radio, and the opponents radio broadcasts, and I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Why wasn't the hitting coach fired before Maddon?" in the last two weeks. Almost every day.

What's their BABIP @gurn67?

[beatlesrule]

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Scioscia after 2009: 750-708 .514
Maddon: 157-172 .477
Asmus: 72-90 .444

Maybe it's just me but Im guessing if either Maddon or Ausmus had put up a .514 winning percentage they likely keep their job.  Mediocrity would have been a big step up from complete awfulness.  Even MS's 160-164 over his final two seasons seems like a step up.

Scioscia had 1 good year, 2014, that helped with his record barely being over .500. Still mind bottling that Arte gave him a 10 year extension but that's a different topic. Like I have already stated, this current team doesn't just need a new manager. The roster is pretty pathetic with zero depth. Nevin can't just magically change all that. I still don't see the reasoning behind firing Maddon because the ORG as a whole is flawed. The roster was not Maddon's fault. Has anyone here seen any instances where Maddon would have done something different from Nevin that would have had a different result either with a win or loss? I haven't seen every pitch of every game since Nevin became the manager but I have see enough to where the difference seems negligible. The Angels would likely have the same record with Maddon as the manager.

Rob Thompson, on the other hand, has clearly shown that he is better than Girardi and it's not even close.

[Stradling]

17 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

Scioscia had 1 good year, 2014, that helped with his record barely being over .500. Still mind bottling that Arte gave him a 10 year extension but that's a different topic. Like I have already stated, this current team doesn't just need a new manager. The roster is pretty pathetic with zero depth. Nevin can't just magically change all that. I still don't see the reasoning behind firing Maddon because the ORG as a whole is flawed. The roster was not Maddon's fault. Has anyone here seen any instances where Maddon would have done something different from Nevin that would have had a different result either with a win or loss? I haven't seen every pitch of every game since Nevin became the manager but I have see enough to where the difference seems negligible. The Angels would likely have the same record with Maddon as the manager.

Rob Thompson, on the other hand, has clearly shown that he is better than Girardi and it's not even close.

You are literally asking us to agree with you.  What has Nevin done differently?  He has used Quijada differently as well as Bradley differently.  Maddon was fired not just because of the losing streak, but because of the overall performance the last 3 years.  If you don’t think Maddon had an impact on the roster, then you should look at last year and ask why every guy we were rumored to be in on had Maddon ties.  You don’t think Maddon had a hand in bringing back Suzuki and his clubhouse presence?  Last year it was Fowler and Jon Jay and Cobb, which Cobb worked out.  

[Inside Pitch]

21 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

Scioscia had 1 good year, 2014, that helped with his record barely being over .500. Still mind bottling that Arte gave him a 10 year extension but that's a different topic. Like I have already stated, this current team doesn't just need a new manager. The roster is pretty pathetic with zero depth. Nevin can't just magically change all that. I still don't see the reasoning behind firing Maddon because the ORG as a whole is flawed.

I went on record just before he was fired (like an hour before), that I didn't think canning Maddon would make a difference. That said, I would have fired him after the end of last year.  That BS with the defense was too obvious to not have been by design.  Instead he did what he's always done and fired coaches.

47 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

The roster was not Maddon's fault. 

I genuinely wonder if this is 100% true..  I have no actual knowledge of how it all went down or how much say JM had, but I can't help but wonder if Maddon had any influence on some of the offseason roster moves.  Wade and his "flexibility" comes across like a player being brought in to appease a Maddon need to have a guy like that.  Also, I think it's hilarious how many people who were singing Minasian's praises for "fixing the bullpen" are now singing a different tune..  and this is coming from someone that actually thinks the BP shit show will even itself out.

51 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

Has anyone here seen any instances where Maddon would have done something different from Nevin that would have had a different result either with a win or loss? I haven't seen every pitch of every game since Nevin became the manager but I have see enough to where the difference seems negligible. The Angels would likely have the same record with Maddon as the manager.

Rob Thompson, on the other hand, has clearly shown that he is better than Girardi and it's not even close.

So, you've watched enough Phillies games and have actual instances of things he's done differently to where you feel confident saying HE is the reason for the turnaround?  If so, what are those instances and reasons?  Personally, I think those guys probably hated Girardi and his BS but I don't watch them enough to have an actual opinion worth paying any attention to.

Tell you what I do believe... When your manager's attempt to change the direction of the team is to get a haircut, then you're talking about a guy who thinks style trumps substance.  Other than letting Ohtani play more which is something driven by Ohtani and truthfully a byproduct of his finally being 100% healthy, can anyone point to a player that improved as a direct result of Maddon?  Was Maddon's usage of any one player truly impactful?  There was no Chone Figgins evolution.  There was no remaking what a middle RP was or what their role should be ala Shields.

Lastly, some of the stories that have come out since his dismissal do make me wonder how much he was at odds with the front office. I say that despite agreeing with him that the things that make teams successful also make the game way more boring. Thing is, winning is everything at the highest level.  Something you have said repeatedly over the years.  If he was opposed to doing things that help the team win because he thinks it makes for a duller game, that's kind of problematic.

I know Fletcher quoted him as saying no such disconnect existed, but that BS with the defense last year and the sudden change this season to almost mirror the data at BBSavant will always make me wonder.

[Inside Pitch]

44 minutes ago, Stradling said:

You are literally asking us to agree with you.  What has Nevin done differently?  He has used Quijada differently as well as Bradley differently.  Maddon was fired not just because of the losing streak, but because of the overall performance the last 3 years.  If you don’t think Maddon had an impact on the roster, then you should look at last year and ask why every guy we were rumored to be in on had Maddon ties.  You don’t think Maddon had a hand in bringing back Suzuki and his clubhouse presence?  Last year it was Fowler and Jon Jay and Cobb, which Cobb worked out.  

To be fair -- Quijada was out, so it's hard to say if Maddon wouldn't have used him the same way.  The guy I'd be focusing on to see if there is a change in usage is probably Loup, because there is noise in his splits that goes beyond the typical RP volatility.

I agree with you about the roster.  He seemed to have a lot of influence in who was brought in last season, not sure it was more of the same this season but he did say that the team needed to do better than keep bringing up unproven guys at the end of last year, so...  hard to argue he had NO say.

Ironically enough, there were some of us that were pushing for more of those guys who were brought up to get bigger roles.  I like Wantz FWIW, but that guy has a serious Santana HR pitcher thing going on.   One guy I think could be pretty solid in the pen right now is Silseth. I applaud them for keeping him a SP for as long as they can, but his two primary pitches and his ability to get outs with them would translate to the pen right now.   If they do turn it around and the RPs continue to be an issue, I'd at least want to see them try him there...

[cals]

He’d probably kick an ass or two, that’s what Joe Maddon would do.

[Inside Pitch]

32 minutes ago, cals said:

He’d probably kick an ass or two, that’s what Joe Maddon would do.

I do wonder what Brian Boitano could do with this team.

[cals]

7 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

I do wonder what Brian Boitano could do with this team.

[beatlesrule]

Well so maybe Maddon got one or 2 of his guys but the roster was mostly Minasian. Arte was the one that wanted Maddon. Arte is the one constant in all of this suckiness. I understand Minasian didn't want Maddon as the manager but firing him in the first week of June with the roster the way it is didn't feel like it was going to make a difference and so far, it hasn't and I don't think it will unless there is a mini rebuild which Nevin spearheads.

It's correct that I haven't watched the Phillies games and can only go on their record after getting a new manager. If they hated playing for Girardi, were they just not trying every game? That's not professional at all. I don't think that they had a bunch of injured guys that all of a sudden got healthy right when he was fired. It seems more like a strategy difference with the managers. Whatever the reason, Rob Thompson is getting it done. My point is, I don't think the greatest manager ever could all of a sudden make the guys currently on the team into world series contenders. The roster is just flawed and Maddon was simply the scapegoat like Vogel before him. Don't misunderstand me defending Maddon though. I am indifferent. As far as I am concerned, Nevin and Maddon are interchangeable. Just a different name on a crappy team.

[gurn67]

5 hours ago, Chuckster70 said:

What's their BABIP @gurn67?

In order to calculate that, the hitters actually have to put balls in play. I don't know if there's been enough of a sample size to calculate that over the last month. Most of pitches thrown to them lately just end up in the catcher's mitt.

[Slegnaac]

I doubt that we will ever hear Nevin state at a press conference

"...results don't matter..."