Heyman: Angels have checked in on every available starting pitcher

[tdawg87]

I'm imagining a rotation in which Ohtani is our #3 starter and it moved.

The problem is, after Cole the FA market for pitchers drops off significantly. I hope they can sign him but it's far from a guarantee. 

We may have to trade for 2 starters tbh.

[fan_since79]

16 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

Please stop trying to make Chris Archer happen.

Yep. Very mediocre and 30 years old. No thanks.

He can give us innings though. But that's not enough.

[mulwin444]

55 minutes ago, Second Base said:

Greinke has 2/70 left. If the Angels cut Calhoun loose they're looking at 54 million off the books and probably 7-ish million more in arbitration, which means they could spend around 47 million before matching this year's payroll. So if the Angels took on 35 million a year with Greinke, they couldn't afford Cole, not without increasing payroll around 15 million for a year or two. They would still be under the luxury tax though, so no penalty.

Archer costs 9 million next year and has an 11 million option the year after that. So what they could do is Archer and Greinke. Or Archer and Cole. But unless Arte is willing to make a short term investment but going past previous limits for two years, Greinke and Cole together aren't an option....

Unless one of two things occur. 

1. The Angels get the D-Backs to eat some money in a Greinke trade, but that would require the Angels to pay much more in terms of prospects.

2. They sign Cole to a heavily backloaded contact. Like if he signs for 6/150 like I think he will, only pay him 15 million the first couple of years and 35 million the last couple.

But if that happens, you're looking at a rotation fronted by Cole, Greinke, Ohtani.... That in the playoffs combined with the Angels offense would scare the crap out of every team in baseball, like the Astros three past couple years, Red Sox or the Dodgers. They would be an upper echelon team.

Greinke also has $60 + million in deferred money...it's a big chunk of change

[mulwin444]

How about Ray/Greinke and just say "here's some good prospects and we'll assume all the salary"?

[Duren, Duren]

The Angels will have to finish this season up strong to have an appeal to Cole.

He will probably have many teams offering different, creative packages to him. Term, dollars, method of spreading the payments, outside baseball and post playing career options. As well as showcasing community and residential benefits. And selling the team as one with  championship potential.

A lot will depend on his individual preferences. Obviously some things will matter more than others. And his accountants will examine every detail of each proposal. 

Homegrown familiarity is the one advantage the Angels have that other teams can't offer. And we don't know how big a factor that will be.

As far as competitiveness goes, there are reasonable positive arguments to be made. A deep, explosive offensive nucleus that should remain intact more or less for some years. A better than average defensive team. A handful of youngish but promising pitchers still progressing.

The chance to play the rest of his career with Trout. And likely  multiple years with Ohtani in his dual roles. 

Of course there will be other teams more championship ready in the immediate present, but signing a long term deal implies patience. 

I would make a very serious offer, but not cross the line where it handicaps the team past the luxury tax. Of course, if he is signed it means roster shuffling but no one should become fixated on a pitcher who has been good most of his career and is now having a peak season.

 

[totdprods]

1 minute ago, mulwin444 said:

How about Ray/Greinke and just say "here's some good prospects and we'll assume all the salary"?

I’ve been hoping for this since last winter. 

Though, if it was all salary, “some good prospects” could be debatable, or an ask to take back Cozart/Cahill to open up a little more salary room this year and next for other needs. 

[mulwin444]

1 minute ago, totdprods said:

I’ve been hoping for this since last winter. 

Though, if it was all salary, “some good prospects” could be debatable, or an ask to take back Cozart/Cahill to open up a little more salary room this year and next for other needs. 

I'm sure the numbers could be worked out.  DBacks would have a chance to hit the reset button and Angels assume the risk of Greinke's post-35 years while having a controllable Ray.

Greinke, Ontani, Ray, Heaney, Canning would be a workable 5 with this offense 

[totdprods]

5 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

I'm sure the numbers could be worked out.  DBacks would have a chance to hit the reset button and Angels assume the risk of Greinke's post-35 years while having a controllable Ray.

Greinke, Ontani, Ray, Heaney, Canning would be a workable 5 with this offense 

Yup. Shouldn’t hurt farm too bad with the salary absorbed. Rules out Cole almost certainly but is a good win-now/save bullets for later compromise.

Relies heavily on cheap young bats developing and cheap young arms holding down the rotation, with the Angels payroll starting to shed big contracts after 2021, 2022, etc. to spend big then and replace whoever didn’t pan out.

Edited July 27, 2019 by totdprods

[tdawg87]

This makes too much sense, so it won't happen.

[Chuck]

1 hour ago, mulwin444 said:

How about Ray/Greinke and just say "here's some good prospects and we'll assume all the salary"?

This is a very good idea. 

[Stradling]

I am fine with taking on all the salaries, but that puts us out of the running for Cole.  

[fan_since79]

Ray/Greinke is a heck of a lot better than what we have at the moment.

And it fills a desperate need for this team.

[Chuck]

3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I am fine with taking on all the salaries, but that puts us out of the running for Cole.  

Ray and Greinke combined will be cheaper than what Gerrit Cole gets via FA. That and you know the Angels are going to have competition so there's no guarantee you get him. 

[fan_since79]

3 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

Ray and Greinke combined will be cheaper than what Gerrit Cole gets via FA. That and you know the Angels are going to have competition so there's no guarantee you get him. 

Exactly.

[angelsnationtalk]

8 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

Ray and Greinke combined will be cheaper than what Gerrit Cole gets via FA. That and you know the Angels are going to have competition so there's no guarantee you get him. 

I guess that’s a very good point. Obviously Greinke’s age always brings concern, but so far he’s been ageless. 

Greinke, Ohtani, Ray, Canning, Heaney, Suarez/Pena.... pretty decent 

[totdprods]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

I am fine with taking on all the salaries, but that puts us out of the running for Cole.  

Also, while it ties up the payroll for 2019, 2020, and 2021, it’s gives the Angels another chance to do a big money reset following 2021 and address needs in FA at that time. Gerrit Cole would be great but it’s another long-term high dollar commitment while we still have Upton, Trout, Pujols under contract, not to mention the sizable 2020 salaries of Simmons, Cozart, and potentially Calhoun. Cole fits every need but there’s still a real chance he’s one or two years too early for our timeline. Greinke on basically a 2/$50-60 is another big contract on top of those isn’t nearly as bad when it comes off shortly after. 

A Greinke deal essentially “locks” the current team/core into place for the next two years - which might be a good thing, as it sets them up to rely on guys like Canning, Barria, Suarez, Thaiss, Ward, Adell, Rengifo, La Stella - and then re-assess following 2021 in order to determine which gaps they have in FA, which is still early enough in the Trout/Adell/Ohtani-era to justify. 

If Greinke totally falls off a cliff next year or the prospects aren’t working and the 2020 team is same news, the Angels can pivot in July and offload La Stella, Simmons, Ray, Calhoun (if they keep him), and be major sellers too, also resetting ahead of the 2021 season.

Next winter, Bauer, Stroman, Tanaka, Walker, Paxton, Minor, DeSclafini, Erlin are some potential FA targets. Who knows, it might be better to sit out on Cole this winter, and plan on nabbing Bauer next winter for the same price, and going year-to-year with him if he’s serious. Angels pay more annually, but no long-term risk, and he *could* be as impact as Cole. Realmuto and Zunino also hit FA that year.

We’d live and die by the youth the next two seasons - which is a good thing because we won’t have to deal much to get these two arms if we take the salary, and it’ll determine who’s legitimate. Pujols and Greinke come off after 2021, we address need in FA then, and the current A/A+ pitching crop and rookie level bats should be ascending into the upper minors by that time. Makes too much sense.

Edited July 27, 2019 by totdprods

[Stradling]

I am not positive and for some reason Cots isn’t loading up for me, but I think with differed money Greinke is still on the books for over $90 million after this year.  So then you ask yourself do you want to most certainly pay for someone’s decline at what would amount to $45-50 million a year, just so you can get Robbie Ray?  Maybe he won’t decline, but even if he doesn’t, is he worth that?  Desperation causes really stupid decisions.  Be careful.  

[Stradling]

@Jeff Fletcher do you have access to the details of Greinke’s deal?  

[UndertheHalo]

I can’t overstate how much I hate the idea that the Angels time line is 2 or 3 years from now.  The timeline is now.  It’s open now.  3 years is Trout in his 30’s.  The Angels cannot keep doing this when they have the best player on the planet at the height of his powers. 

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, UndertheHalo said:

I can’t overstate how much I hate the idea that the Angels time line is 2 or 3 years from now.  The timeline is now.  It’s open now.  3 years is Trout in his 30’s.  The Angels cannot keep doing this when they have the best player on the planet at the height of his powers. 

Correct, which is why I think they will make one trade now and go after the best starter they can get in the off season.  I have no problem trading Marsh as long as it isn’t for Leake or Minor and it is towards Syndergaard or Stroman.  Hell even Robbie Ray.  Adell I just wouldn’t trade for a pitcher.  Maybe Walker Buehler.  

[axalar]

1 hour ago, Chuckster70 said:

Ray and Greinke combined will be cheaper than what Gerrit Cole gets via FA. That and you know the Angels are going to have competition so there's no guarantee you get him. 

Greinke + Ray > Cole. Perhaps not in performance, but based on ability to address the need sooner, and expected outcomes. If we make no impact acquisition now, and lose out on Cole, which is a good possibility, then what? More Cahill’s and Harvey’s? 

I’m more curious if Arte would sign off on bringing Greinke back again.

[UndertheHalo]

They have a couple of big contracts. All the teams that are in contention to win carry some big contracts.  I’m sick of this kicking the can down the road shit.  Players are always going to rise and fall.  There will be other issues in 2-3 years.  It’s never going to be perfect.  

The Angels are one of the most but financially secure teams in the league.  Stop making excuses.  If they don’t trade a bunch of farm assets in a probably lost cause season this year.  So be it, but for them to defer next year.  That’s not alright.  Cole is absolutely in our “timeline” if not him who the fu*k will be ever ? Seriously ? 

Edited July 27, 2019 by UndertheHalo

[UndertheHalo]

5 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Correct, which is why I think they will make one trade now and go after the best starter they can get in the off season.  I have no problem trading Marsh as long as it isn’t for Leake or Minor and it is towards Syndergaard or Stroman.  Hell even Robbie Ray.  Adell I just wouldn’t trade for a pitcher.  Maybe Walker Buehler.  

I agree with this completely 

[totdprods]

13 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Maybe he won’t decline, but even if he doesn’t, is he worth that?

Definitely not. Few FAs are. But, it’s only two real years of impact, and while he’s due to decline sometime, he’s pretty goddamned good this year, and has reversed trends. He seems to be crafty enough to maybe at least decline gradually rather than fall off a cliff, and if he does, it’s only two years - two years in which we’d like to compete, but aren’t quite expected to also. 

The value to me is the prospects saved. It’s a win-now move while staying course for the future - saves those prospects and puts us on a course to test those prospects. 

[UndertheHalo]

There’s no way for the Angels to replicate what the Astros did.  It’s not the way the team operates.  We have to stop looking at that model. It literally took the Astros a decade to build out what they have.  They tanked massively.  The Angels aren’t doing that.  And if the plan is replicating the Astros (again- they are not) they’re completely doing it wrong and are massively fuc*king up.