Trout Batting Second

[stormngt]

2 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

If everyone was an equal hitter it would happen 1/9 of the games. That equals 18 PAs over the course of a 162 game season. You can define significant however you want.

First I think it's far more important to get base runners on base in front of him instead of getting 18 extra at bats.  Plus everyone is not an equal hitter.  I know by looking at the box scores the top of the order typically gets 5 PAs a game while the bottom of order typically gets 4.

[eaterfan]

9 minutes ago, stormngt said:

First I think it's far more important to get base runners on base in front of him instead of getting 18 extra at bats.  Plus everyone is not an equal hitter.  I know by looking at the box scores the top of the order typically gets 5 PAs a game while the bottom of order typically gets 4.

How often are the guys getting on in front of him?

And yes, each spot you move down in the lineup gets you 18 fewer PAs a year theoretically. I just meant by "if all hitters are equal" that guys at the top of the order are typically less likely to get out than those at the bottom. Trout has a 60% chance of making an out while a guy like Aybar has a 70% chance. Moving Aybar to leadoff instead of 9 and Trout to 9 instead of two doesn't change either of their chances of making the final out. It will change the chances of which spot will make the final out.

I know Aybar isn't on the team. I was just picking a low OBP guy who has been used at the top and bottom of the order historically on this team.

[HaloNArizona]

Kole needs to be batting either lead off or 2nd.

Look at his splits over the years, and while he has sucked some ass this year, he really sucks ass in any spot other than lead off or 2nd.

If everyone wants Trout to bat 2nd, then have Kole leadoff.

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, Troll Daddy said:

Point taken but now isn't Cowart's time. Let's face it ... Cowart may aspire to be nothing more than a utility player himself. I'll be rooting for his success on the ML level. I'm sure the powers to be are too. 

What?  He's hit very well in AAA for 1.5 seasons, can play multiple positions very well, run the bases well, and has spent 7 seasons in the minors.   What more is there for him to prove in the minors?   When July 23 passes, and his clock thus doesn't start until 2018, get him up here STAT and see how he does for two months!

[Stradling]

It is exactly the time, but TD doesn't want to see it or simply wants to be THAT GUY. 

[Troll Daddy]

3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

It is exactly the time, but TD doesn't want to see it or simply wants to be THAT GUY. 

Take up your issues with Eppler ... I just happen to agree is all.

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Troll Daddy said:

Pennington lifetime OPS over ten years

.650

Right -- so he's proven to be bad while Cowart hasn't had the at bats to prove anything yet....    

[Stradling]

Just now, Troll Daddy said:

Take up your issues with Eppler ... I just happen to agree is all.

Right on THAT GUY.  For the life of me, I can't even remotely understand, how a "fan" wouldn't be for Cowart at 2nd base right now.  Our other options are Nick Franklin or Cliff Pennington. 

[Troll Daddy]

21 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Right on THAT GUY.  For the life of me, I can't even remotely understand, how a "fan" wouldn't be for Cowart at 2nd base right now.  Our other options are Nick Franklin or Cliff Pennington. 

I want the team to win and it's imo this gives us our best chance. Although, I highly prefer they trade for a legit second baseman.

Once we're out of the race I too would like to Cowart play everyday. His AAA numbers are good but doesn't necessarily translate into ML against pitching. 

You wish may come true but don't hold your breath. 

[Stradling]

Just now, Troll Daddy said:

I want the team to win and it's imo this gives us our best chance. Although, I highly prefer they trade for a legit second baseman.

Once we're out of the race I too would like to Cowart play everyday. His AAA numbers are good but doesn't necessarily translate into ML against pitching. 

You wish may come true but don't hold your breath. 

Here is my rebuttal: Nick Franklin, Cliff Pennington, 3 games under .500, chasing 5 teams. 

[Troll Daddy]

12 minutes ago, hangin n wangin said:

It's weird right? For a delusional nuthugger, you would think he would actually like the idea of giving a chance to Cowart, especially when we literally don't have any other options to start at 2nd base. There isn't a day that goes by that I read Troll Daddy's posts and not think, "What the fuck is this guy talking about?"

You're the type of guy and could have beers with but I'd end up cold cocking you at the end of the night.

 

[Troll Daddy]

Just now, Stradling said:

Here is my rebuttal: Nick Franklin, Cliff Pennington, 3 games under .500, chasing 5 teams. 

Tell that to Eppler not me

[Stradling]

5 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

Tell that to Eppler not me

I will put you in the category of being against Eppler's decision when he pulls the trigger on Cowart being on the roster.  You can't have it both ways. 

[Troll Daddy]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I will put you in the category of being against Eppler's decision when he pulls the trigger on Cowart being on the roster.  You can't have it both ways. 

Read my last few posts ... yes I can

[Stradling]

THAT GUY

[Troll Daddy]

8 minutes ago, Stradling said:

THAT GUY

Ok Lumpy 

Actually, I prefer them trading Yescobar and let Cowart play his natural position.

[stormngt]

9 hours ago, eaterfan said:

How often are the guys getting on in front of him?

And yes, each spot you move down in the lineup gets you 18 fewer PAs a year theoretically. I just meant by "if all hitters are equal" that guys at the top of the order are typically less likely to get out than those at the bottom. Trout has a 60% chance of making an out while a guy like Aybar has a 70% chance. Moving Aybar to leadoff instead of 9 and Trout to 9 instead of two doesn't change either of their chances of making the final out. It will change the chances of which spot will make the final out.

I know Aybar isn't on the team. I was just picking a low OBP guy who has been used at the top and bottom of the order historically on this team.

People not hitting is front of him is up the front office to get the right players.  And since you believe 18 ABs through the entire season think about this.  If Trout bats leadoff you are guaranteeing one of play appearance will have no one on base.  Throughout the season that will be an estimate 162 play appearances a year.  Now let's assume the two player ahead of him has an OBS on 300 (low estimate) you are talking about 38 plate appearances with a batter on base.

I don't get the logic of the need to bat Trump leadoff to get him more at bats.

[arch stanton]

Trout ran about 20 PA's fewer in the 2 seasons hitting third than the ones hitting second. That's enough to convince me to bat him second

[eaterfan]

8 hours ago, stormngt said:

People not hitting is front of him is up the front office to get the right players.  And since you believe 18 ABs through the entire season think about this.  If Trout bats leadoff you are guaranteeing one of play appearance will have no one on base.  Throughout the season that will be an estimate 162 play appearances a year.  Now let's assume the two player ahead of him has an OBS on 300 (low estimate) you are talking about 38 plate appearances with a batter on base.

I don't get the logic of the need to bat Trump leadoff to get him more at bats.

I wouldn't bat him first. I'd bat him second. I wouldn't bat him 3rd, though.

[Blarg]

20 plate appearances over 162 game means once every 8 games he may get an additional at bat. It also means he has fewer opportunities to hit with risp having only one guy with a high OBP in front of him and at least three guys before that at the bottom of the lineup that create a higher percentage of outs than baserunners compared to the rest of the lineup.

I would rather sacrifice those 20 at bats of the 600 he will see to optimize the amount of times he is at the plate with a runner on or with RISP opportunities. Putting two higher on base players in front of him instead of just one increases this chance. That is over the course of the entirity of every game instead of waiting for that one game out of eight for that extra at bat.

[arch stanton]

5 minutes ago, Blarg said:

20 plate appearances over 162 game means once every 8 games he may get an additional at bat. It also means he has fewer opportunities to hit with risp having only one guy with a high OBP in front of him and at least three guys before that at the bottom of the lineup that create a higher percentage of outs than baserunners compared to the rest of the lineup.

I would rather sacrifice those 20 at bats of the 600 he will see to optimize the amount of times he is at the plate with a runner on or with RISP opportunities. Putting two higher on base players in front of him instead of just one increases this chance. That is over the course of the entirity of every game instead of waiting for that one game out of eight for that extra at bat.

That's great if you have those high obp bats to put in front of him but when he's 100 points ahead of the next guy he's probably more valuable getting the extra chances to be on base himself

[eaterfan]

4 minutes ago, Blarg said:

20 plate appearances over 162 game means once every 8 games he may get an additional at bat. It also means he has fewer opportunities to hit with risp having only one guy with a high OBP in front of him and at least three guys before that at the bottom of the lineup that create a higher percentage of outs than baserunners compared to the rest of the lineup.

I would rather sacrifice those 20 at bats of the 600 he will see to optimize the amount of times he is at the plate with a runner on or with RISP opportunities. Putting two higher on base players in front of him instead of just one increases this chance. That is over the course of the entirity of every game instead of waiting for that one game out of eight for that extra at bat.

But only 1/4.5 of those PAs he won't have 2 guys hitting on front of him (he will someone's lead off an inning or come up second) hitting 2nd compared to third. Now even assuming the number 2 hitter has a .07 increase in OBP than the number 9 hitter it's not worth the loss of PAs.

[Blarg]

1 hour ago, arch stanton said:

That's great if you have those high obp bats to put in front of him but when he's 100 points ahead of the next guy he's probably more valuable getting the extra chances to be on base himself

But he is the best hitter on the team right now to score runners. He is of little value on second base with two outs and no one behind him to push him across the plate. Pujols used to be that guy, he isn't and there is nothing behind him. So stack the deck in front of him to plate runners. That's the real objective, not just plate appearances.

[arch stanton]

3 minutes ago, Blarg said:

But he is the best hitter on the team right now to score runners. He is of little value on second base with two outs and no one behind him to push him across the plate. Pujols used to be that guy, he isn't and there is nothing behind him. So stack the deck in front of him to plate runners. That's the real objective, not just plate appearances.

As it stands your stacking the deck with deuces. No second bat to put in front of him that's a real improvement over whoever bats 9th

[Blarg]

1 hour ago, eaterfan said:

But only 1/4.5 of those PAs he won't have 2 guys hitting on front of him (he will someone's lead off an inning or come up second) hitting 2nd compared to third. Now even assuming the number 2 hitter has a .07 increase in OBP than the number 9 hitter it's not worth the loss of PAs.

There is nearly 100 point difference in OBP between Escobar and Ben Revere that batted 9th last night. An 80 point difference between Revere and Simmons. So you are saying a sequence of Revere - Escobar in front of Trout is more additive to the offense for 20 plate appearances over the span of a entire season than a sequence of Escobar - Simmons .

This math just isn't working out the way you think it is. Your giving up 600 plate appearances with a higher chance of runners on base for 20 additional at bats.