Ricky Henderson Field

[Don]

7 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

On a serious note, I miss players like Rickey Henderson - and Tim Raines, and even Kenny Lofton: 70+ bases a year, some power, getting on base all the time. Really dynamic players.

Rickey had three years in which he hit at least 24 HR and 65 SB. Crazy.

One could make a solid case that he had one of the ten or so best careers ever for a position player.

[totdprods]

6 minutes ago, Don said:

One could make a solid case that he had one of the ten or so best careers ever for a position player.

No disagreement there. I was too young for his prime, but thought he was legendary when I was little and just learning about the game. Looking back on his stats, watching highlights, and the bit of his career I did see didn't dissuade that opinion.

Almost 500 more walks than strikeouts over his career too. Heck, only 1500 strikeouts over a 25 year career is impressive. A little odd that with his speed he only logged 66 triples in his career. Must've liked stealing third more.

Mind-boggling to see 130 SBs in a single season. 50 is rare these days.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

14 hours ago, Rico said:

The years I remember him on the A's were around the same time the Angels kinda sucked.  Late 80's to mid 90's.  So I had no problem rooting for the guy as we weren't playing meaningful games against the A's.  (Though leading off a game with a home run did sting.)

Even during those years when we would be playing the A's the two players that always killed us were Rickey and former Halo Carney Lansford...

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

12 hours ago, totdprods said:

No disagreement there. I was too young for his prime, but thought he was legendary when I was little and just learning about the game. Looking back on his stats, watching highlights, and the bit of his career I did see didn't dissuade that opinion.

Almost 500 more walks than strikeouts over his career too. Heck, only 1500 strikeouts over a 25 year career is impressive. A little odd that with his speed he only logged 66 triples in his career. Must've liked stealing third more.

Mind-boggling to see 130 SBs in a single season. 50 is rare these days.

Your comment which was kind of true with Rickey... A funny story when he was in the middle of breaking the stolen base record of 130 in 1982. When he was playing the Indians Jack Perconte was interviewed and asked about Ricky stealing bases during the game. Perconte said Ricky told him after a stolen base. "I wish I could run back to first and steal the base again you guys make this way too easy"......

[Angelsjunky]

15 hours ago, Don said:

One could make a solid case that he had one of the ten or so best careers ever for a position player.

I wouldn't go that far, but certainly top 20. I think his main problem to be considered one of the very best, is that he was a bit erratic. At his best, he was as good as anyone, but he only had a few seasons that were truly great, and then a bunch that were excellent, and a bunch that were average to above average.

Let's see what Fangraphs has to say:

*Rickey is #17 all-time in fWAR with 106.3, between Mike Schmidt and Frank Robinson.

*He's all the way down to #148 in career wRC+ at 132, tied with players like George Brett and Matt Carpenter.

*He has 144.4 Baserunning Runs, easily first all-time. #2 is 100.4 (Tim Raines).

*His individual seasons by fWAR: 10.4, 9.7, 8.4, 7.8, 7.0, 6.7, 6.4, 5.8, 5.6, 5.5, 5.5, 5.0, 4.8, 3.8, 2.8, 2.6, 2.2, 2.1, 1.9, 1.8, 0.6, 0.5, 0.4, 0.1, -0.7.

*In other words, five great or MVP caliber (7+ fWAR); eight very good to excellent, or All-Star caliber (4 to <7 fWAR); seven in the average to above average range (~2 to <4); and five mediocre or worse (1>).

So I think what separates Rickey from the best of the best, is that a large portion of a his career--12 years, or almost half--was just above average or below. Most of the truly inner circle greats are at least very good for the vast majority of their careers.

Still, he might not be "inner circle" but he's in the next tier out.

[Don]

On 2/8/2017 at 1:07 PM, Angelsjunky said:

I wouldn't go that far, but certainly top 20. I think his main problem to be considered one of the very best, is that he was a bit erratic. At his best, he was as good as anyone, but he only had a few seasons that were truly great, and then a bunch that were excellent, and a bunch that were average to above average.

Let's see what Fangraphs has to say:

*Rickey is #17 all-time in fWAR with 106.3, between Mike Schmidt and Frank Robinson.

*He's all the way down to #148 in career wRC+ at 132, tied with players like George Brett and Matt Carpenter.

*He has 144.4 Baserunning Runs, easily first all-time. #2 is 100.4 (Tim Raines).

*His individual seasons by fWAR: 10.4, 9.7, 8.4, 7.8, 7.0, 6.7, 6.4, 5.8, 5.6, 5.5, 5.5, 5.0, 4.8, 3.8, 2.8, 2.6, 2.2, 2.1, 1.9, 1.8, 0.6, 0.5, 0.4, 0.1, -0.7.

*In other words, five great or MVP caliber (7+ fWAR); eight very good to excellent, or All-Star caliber (4 to <7 fWAR); seven in the average to above average range (~2 to <4); and five mediocre or worse (1>).

So I think what separates Rickey from the best of the best, is that a large portion of a his career--12 years, or almost half--was just above average or below. Most of the truly inner circle greats are at least very good for the vast majority of their careers.

Still, he might not be "inner circle" but he's in the next tier out.

Thanks for the analysis. Perhaps I was a bit out of range in my assessment. While I fully defer to the numbers you've pointed out, I do think there's a general trend in baseball lore to oversell the careers of power guys a bit and undersell the table setter/speed guys.

[Angel Oracle]

On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 11:07 AM, Angelsjunky said:

I wouldn't go that far, but certainly top 20. I think his main problem to be considered one of the very best, is that he was a bit erratic. At his best, he was as good as anyone, but he only had a few seasons that were truly great, and then a bunch that were excellent, and a bunch that were average to above average.

Let's see what Fangraphs has to say:

*Rickey is #17 all-time in fWAR with 106.3, between Mike Schmidt and Frank Robinson.

*He's all the way down to #148 in career wRC+ at 132, tied with players like George Brett and Matt Carpenter.

*He has 144.4 Baserunning Runs, easily first all-time. #2 is 100.4 (Tim Raines).

*His individual seasons by fWAR: 10.4, 9.7, 8.4, 7.8, 7.0, 6.7, 6.4, 5.8, 5.6, 5.5, 5.5, 5.0, 4.8, 3.8, 2.8, 2.6, 2.2, 2.1, 1.9, 1.8, 0.6, 0.5, 0.4, 0.1, -0.7.

*In other words, five great or MVP caliber (7+ fWAR); eight very good to excellent, or All-Star caliber (4 to <7 fWAR); seven in the average to above average range (~2 to <4); and five mediocre or worse (1>).

So I think what separates Rickey from the best of the best, is that a large portion of a his career--12 years, or almost half--was just above average or below. Most of the truly inner circle greats are at least very good for the vast majority of their careers.

Still, he might not be "inner circle" but he's in the next tier out.

Longevity is of course one of his biggest career definers.

[Don]

4 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Longevity is of course one of his biggest career definers.

Hank Aaron is another one. But Hank maintained a ridiculous level of consistency for roughly twenty years, then faded a bit in his last three or so years. His BR page is absolutely crazy to look at.