Are they done?

[WeatherWonk]

Just now, KevinJ14 said:

CJ Wilson, lefty specialist 

Think about it...

I thought about it when we had him. He cant throw strikes consistently enough to be brought in during an inning when runner(s) might already be on base.

[Jobu]

14 hours ago, Tank said:

yes?

Don't you have a lunch scheduled? 

[California Cajun]

I think the Angels are done this offseason unless something unexpected falls into their laps.  Maybin and Espinosa are upgrades over prior attempts to fix LF and 2B.  Still scratching my head over the Jett Bandy trade.  My feeling is that they are targeting 2018 as the year to contend.  

[nikkachez]

I'm hoping for more pitching, but losing faith that they will add some. 

[totdprods]

11 minutes ago, nikkachez said:

I'm hoping for more pitching, but losing faith that they will add some. 

There's plenty of FA pitching left. We have a GM who obviously prioritizes paying the least amount possible for someone, and are in one of the slowest offseasons in recent memory, in the middle of traditionally the slowest month for transactions. We will see something else happen still. No one currently available is really worth rushing into as well, so the FO is hopefully taking their time to do their homework to determine which of what is left is worth taking a flier on.

It's pretty easy in Nov/Dec to look at who is available and determine who is a clear improvement, but when you get into January and your improvement options are guys like Cahill, Niese, Feldman, Norris, it takes a little extra time to glean through that and make the right decision.

[Troll Daddy]

4 minutes ago, totdprods said:

There's plenty of FA pitching left. We have a GM who obviously prioritizes paying the least amount possible for someone, and are in one of the slowest offseasons in recent memory, in the middle of traditionally the slowest month for transactions. We will see something else happen still. No one currently available is really worth rushing into as well, so the FO is hopefully taking their time to do their homework to determine which of what is left is worth taking a flier on.

It's pretty easy in Nov/Dec to look at who is available and determine who is a clear improvement, but when you get into January and your improvement options are guys like Cahill, Niese, Feldman, Norris, it takes a little extra time to glean through that and make the right decision.

I don't think it's fair categorizing Eppler as a penny pincher. There's many holes to fill and he's working under the lux tax. 

 

[totdprods]

8 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

I don't think it's fair categorizing Eppler as a penny pincher. There's many holes to fill and he's working under the lux tax. 

I'm saying it in a positive way. I think he's doing a great job by that. I think when he came in, he looked at this organization and decided that right off the bat he needed to make sure he didn't make a single move that made his job harder by jeopardizing his payroll going forward. He determined a firm price he was willing to pay either per position or per player, stuck to those demands, and didn't budge if it priced him out of players. 

Cliff Pennington has been his sole multi-year FA - even the most stringent of GMs would exceed that over a two-year period, so I think it is by design. Whether it's the result of the 'luxury tax', Arte, or Eppler deciding that himself, or likeliest, a combination of all three, Billy is keeping the commitments low. 

Eppler was either hired for the long-term in mind, or was given the freedom to chart his own course, and he chose to focus on the bigger picture. I think he treated 2016 as a year of assessment, pure and simple. Barely anything was removed from the organization, be it players or personnel. He brought in numerous projects and lotto tickets to take a chance on. I think, and hope, 2017 is seen as a year of development and stabilization more than competition, a year where his lotto picks and frugality pay some dividends and give him some long-term answers. And then he rolls into 2018 with a clearer picture of his needs, a deeper farm to work with, and a larger payroll to play with. 

[Tank]

1 hour ago, Jobu said:

Don't you have a lunch scheduled? 

well don't i feel foolish! i've been so busy this week getting back into school that i haven't had time to even THINK about having lunch with eppler. 

i'll have my people call his people and see if we can rendevous at fritz some time next week. i hear their buffet is tasty.

[Erstad Grit]

3 hours ago, Scotty@AW said:

Being an otimistic person by nature, I believe that Richards, Shoe, Skaggs, Street and Bedrock will all be healthy and in form, and our LF and 2B positions will be quite productive, and our ability to prevent runs will lead to the Angels winning 85-95 games.

But being diligent in building a team requires me to do something very counter-intuitive (at least for me) which is plan for things not to go so well. Eppler has done a good job of doing just that, but to finish it, I think we'll need another proven veteran in the bullpen. I don't think we'll get it, because all that SP depth could play out as relief depth too. 

Just my perspective. 

This is pretty much my thoughts as well,  except feeling like we let Nova slip by.  He would have added stability to the rotation and would have allowed one of those arms to add depth to the pen.  

[Second Base]

Eppler knows Nova better than pretty much any GM in the business, and if wasn't interested in Nova, then I'll trust him.

And while Eppler has shown a strong affinity toward acquiring pitch depth, I think more importantly we have an owner that has grown averse to spending money. 

This teammis at it's self imposed limit right now. 

Now since I know none of you really are going to listen to this, I'll put it in perspective that all AW understands. 

Yacht fuel.

[AngelStew43]

I don't think we have an owner that is averse to spending money, I think our owner is just waiting for the stupid money to go away.  Lets see what happens when Hamilton's contract disappears before we rush to judgement.

[Second Base]

Also, I think the circumstances around Eppler's hiring were very unique. A normal GM job opens up, it means bringing your people in, including manager, the the owner just says, "Build me a winner."

That circumstance is simple. It isn't easy, but it is simple.

Eppler came in with an owner with a history of meddling in operations far too much, and now a sudden unwillingness to spend the money to build a winner. To further complicate matters he has inherited a coach that has long been considered a GM as well. He's hard nosed. He has his way of doing things and if you don't like it, too bad.

Eppler has to somehow build a winner, while working with an owner that has outright refused to spend money for 3+ years, all the while consulting a manager that's become rather archaic in his ways. 

And to make matters worse, Eppler has to start with the worst farm system in baseball, and severe international spending restrictions in place.

If Eppler builds a winner with all these obstacles in place, he'll be the best GM in baseball. I think personally, he'll build a strong farm and get us into contention working like this. But we won't be the class of the AL West unless Arte opens up his wallet again.

We are walking into next winter with no 2B, 3B, LF, no more international spending restrictions, and no more Hamilton contract. Arte must spend money for a winner now.

[totdprods]

1 hour ago, Scotty@AW said:

If Eppler builds a winner with all these obstacles in place, he'll be the best GM in baseball. I think personally, he'll build a strong farm and get us into contention working like this. But we won't be the class of the AL West unless Arte opens up his wallet again.

We are walking into next winter with no 2B, 3B, LF, no more international spending restrictions, and no more Hamilton contract. Arte must spend money for a winner now.

I think we'll see Arte/Eppler start making some major investments possible even midseason. Definitely something this offseason. Eppler still seems conservative enough that I doubt he's going to go on a shopping spree, but I think we'll see something happen. 

The way it looks now, '16 looked like a year where Eppler decided to come in and stop the bleeding and assess everything in-house, players and personnel. Add as much as possible while subtracting as little as possible and build something that resembled some upper-minors depth. 

'17 is looking like a year where he banks on development - the farm, his lotto pick arms, bounce-back FA vets - something taking hold to take off some needs for next offseason. 

I actually think we could see a Dipoto-esque year where Eppler really starts shuffling the deck as the season goes on. He's already done a ton of roster turnover, but there's a lot we will need to fill next offseason still. This team looks like it is crafted in a way where he can sell some players off, without compromising their modest chances, throughout the season and try to concurrently add to the farm and the promote internally to the big-league team, primarily arms.

 

[Second Base]

11 minutes ago, totdprods said:

I think we'll see Arte/Eppler start making some major investments possible even midseason. Definitely something this offseason. Eppler still seems conservative enough that I doubt he's going to go on a shopping spree, but I think we'll see something happen. 

The way it looks now, '16 looked like a year where Eppler decided to come in and stop the bleeding and assess everything in-house, players and personnel. Add as much as possible while subtracting as little as possible and build something that resembled some upper-minors depth. 

'17 is looking like a year where he banks on development - the farm, his lotto pick arms, bounce-back FA vets - something taking hold to take off some needs for next offseason. 

I actually think we could see a Dipoto-esque year where Eppler really starts shuffling the deck as the season goes on. He's already done a ton of roster turnover, but there's a lot we will need to fill next offseason still. This team looks like it is crafted in a way where he can sell some players off, without compromising their modest chances, throughout the season and try to concurrently add to the farm and the promote internally to the big-league team, primarily arms.

 

Every GM must leave their mark. Stoneman's was Kendrick, Aybar and Weaver, as well as McPherson, Mathis and Wood. Prospects he didn't trade. Reagins' I think was Vernon Wells, and not Adrian Beltre and Carl Crawford. It's the guys he failed to get and questionable trades to compensate. Dipoto's will undoubtedly be Trout, Calhoun, Richards, and Pujols, Wilson and Hamilton. Under his watch, our farm produced three star players, a host of other solid players, and a wave of awful free agent acquisitions.

It's a little early to figure out just what mark Eppler will leave. Right now I'd say it's a wave of one-year acquisitions, former top prospects and an emphasis on defense. 

[Inside Pitch]

44 minutes ago, Scotty@AW said:

Every GM must leave their mark. Stoneman's was Kendrick, Aybar and Weaver, as well as McPherson, Mathis and Wood. Prospects he didn't trade. Reagins' I think was Vernon Wells, and not Adrian Beltre and Carl Crawford. It's the guys he failed to get and questionable trades to compensate. Dipoto's will undoubtedly be Trout, Calhoun, Richards, and Pujols, Wilson and Hamilton. Under his watch, our farm produced three star players, a host of other solid players, and a wave of awful free agent acquisitions.

It's a little early to figure out just what mark Eppler will leave. Right now I'd say it's a wave of one-year acquisitions, former top prospects and an emphasis on defense. 

Why would someone that had no part in obtaining any of Trout, Calhoun or Richards be credited with them?    JD inherited an underappreciated farm system that had the best player in MLB in it and had just graduated Mark Trumbo.   The Angels system may have been shallow but it had some more to it than it was given credit for.  Honestly, Arte's meddling aside JD walked into a situation where the owner was willing and able to spend and the farm system had MLB ready talent in it -- compare that to what Eppler walked in and it's night and day.   Thankfully, Arte's bonus baby comes off the books after this season, so hopefully we will get to see if Eppler is good at spending money as he is working without it.

Agreed on Eppler.  Sometimes a GM will look better when he's forced to work within a budget because he cant spend the sort of money that can come back to bite a team in the ass.  As much as I like what Eppler has done, we still need to see how well he does when he has money and spend.

 

[ettin]

21 hours ago, totdprods said:

I'm saying it in a positive way. I think he's doing a great job by that. I think when he came in, he looked at this organization and decided that right off the bat he needed to make sure he didn't make a single move that made his job harder by jeopardizing his payroll going forward. He determined a firm price he was willing to pay either per position or per player, stuck to those demands, and didn't budge if it priced him out of players. 

Cliff Pennington has been his sole multi-year FA - even the most stringent of GMs would exceed that over a two-year period, so I think it is by design. Whether it's the result of the 'luxury tax', Arte, or Eppler deciding that himself, or likeliest, a combination of all three, Billy is keeping the commitments low. 

Eppler was either hired for the long-term in mind, or was given the freedom to chart his own course, and he chose to focus on the bigger picture. I think he treated 2016 as a year of assessment, pure and simple. Barely anything was removed from the organization, be it players or personnel. He brought in numerous projects and lotto tickets to take a chance on. I think, and hope, 2017 is seen as a year of development and stabilization more than competition, a year where his lotto picks and frugality pay some dividends and give him some long-term answers. And then he rolls into 2018 with a clearer picture of his needs, a deeper farm to work with, and a larger payroll to play with. 

Agree with every word of this except that. I sincerely believe they have a team that will compete and has the potential to go the distance. It will not be easy as the A.L. West is very competitive overall but the Angels are not, in my opinion, prioritizing the first two over the last. Competition first always although the others are certainly close seconds in 2017. Other than that well said.

[totdprods]

3 hours ago, ettin said:

Agree with every word of this except that. I sincerely believe they have a team that will compete and has the potential to go the distance. It will not be easy as the A.L. West is very competitive overall but the Angels are not, in my opinion, prioritizing the first two over the last. Competition first always although the others are certainly close seconds in 2017. Other than that well said.

Oh by all means I'm sure they can be competitive and Eppler made moves to still put them in that position, but at most, that's Priority #1B. Personally, I think it's been their secondary goal last year and this year. If it was truly the top priority, there are moves Eppler still could have made that would have been within their limitations and given them a better chance to win than what they currently have. And that's okay. I firmly believe the core of this team is strong enough to compete year in and year out, and that it has been for a couple years and will be for a couple years ahead still. 

I just think Eppler has intentionally looked primarily to stop the bleeding and get the org back into a sustainable position first and foremost over competing. He knows the team has enough in-house to compete at any time, so his focus has been focused primarily on reversing the damage and getting them back on track over making them more competitive.

[Second Base]

3 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Why would someone that had no part in obtaining any of Trout, Calhoun or Richards be credited with them?    JD inherited an underappreciated farm system that had the best player in MLB in it and had just graduated Mark Trumbo.   The Angels system may have been shallow but it had some more to it than it was given credit for.  Honestly, Arte's meddling aside JD walked into a situation where the owner was willing and able to spend and the farm system had MLB ready talent in it -- compare that to what Eppler walked in and it's night and day.   Thankfully, Arte's bonus baby comes off the books after this season, so hopefully we will get to see if Eppler is good at spending money as he is working without it.

Agreed on Eppler.  Sometimes a GM will look better when he's forced to work within a budget because he cant spend the sort of money that can come back to bite a team in the ass.  As much as I like what Eppler has done, we still need to see how well he does when he has money and spend.

 

JD doesn't get credit for acquiring that talent, rather, that talent helped define the team's that Dipoto constructed.

[ettin]

5 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Oh by all means I'm sure they can be competitive and Eppler made moves to still put them in that position, but at most, that's Priority #1B. Personally, I think it's been their secondary goal last year and this year. If it was truly the top priority, there are moves Eppler still could have made that would have been within their limitations and given them a better chance to win than what they currently have. And that's okay. I firmly believe the core of this team is strong enough to compete year in and year out, and that it has been for a couple years and will be for a couple years ahead still. 

I just think Eppler has intentionally looked primarily to stop the bleeding and get the org back into a sustainable position first and foremost over competing. 

We are going to have to agree to disagree then. You can build for sustainability while making winning your #1 priority. We are not far apart on this just the order in which it goes. If they had a focus on building towards the future (sustainability) they would have traded someone like Calhoun rather than retain him.

[totdprods]

7 minutes ago, ettin said:

We are going to have to agree to disagree then. You can build for sustainability while making winning your #1 priority. We are not far apart on this just the order in which it goes. If they had a focus on building towards the future (sustainability) they would have traded someone like Calhoun rather than retain him.

Well, I think Eppler realized he didn't have much to sell off without compromising their chances. If they truly felt making the playoffs was Priority #1A, there's no reason he couldn't have signed a couple good relievers by now, or signed a better LF last year, without hurting their payroll or farm too much. 

I think he's just focusing on stopping the bleeding and rebuilding as much farm as possible as fast as possible, being opportunistic to up our chances of competing, and I think he is waiting for an timeframe to go for it.

[Oz27]

3 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Why would someone that had no part in obtaining any of Trout, Calhoun or Richards be credited with them?    JD inherited an underappreciated farm system that had the best player in MLB in it and had just graduated Mark Trumbo.   The Angels system may have been shallow but it had some more to it than it was given credit for.  Honestly, Arte's meddling aside JD walked into a situation where the owner was willing and able to spend and the farm system had MLB ready talent in it -- compare that to what Eppler walked in and it's night and day.   Thankfully, Arte's bonus baby comes off the books after this season, so hopefully we will get to see if Eppler is good at spending money as he is working without it.

Agreed on Eppler.  Sometimes a GM will look better when he's forced to work within a budget because he cant spend the sort of money that can come back to bite a team in the ass.  As much as I like what Eppler has done, we still need to see how well he does when he has money and spend.

 

Isn't one of your main criticisms of Dipoto that what he did really amounted to fiddling around the edges? If so, I don't really get how you make that evaluation of him without making it of Eppler. Eppler does it in a lower cost, lower reward way I suppose, but doesn't the "lower reward" aspect of that strategy just make it harder for it to ever be truly successful?

[Vegas Halo Fan]

7 hours ago, Scotty@AW said:

If Eppler builds a winner with all these obstacles in place, he'll be the best GM in baseball. I think personally, he'll build a strong farm and get us into contention working like this.

I see signs of this already. The moves that he has made have been with an eye on the budget, but also with an eye toward getting the most for the money that is is spent. He is not prone to overspending on a free agent who is likely to fall short of the production that we need. He also isn't afraid to call in players for a low-risk or no-risk look, to see if they have anything left to contribute.

He is in the unenviable position of trying to keep the club in contention while trying to build a farm system at the same time, which is no easy task. Add in his budget constraints and it is doubly tough.

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Oz27 said:

Isn't one of your main criticisms of Dipoto that what he did really amounted to fiddling around the edges? If so, I don't really get how you make that evaluation of him without making it of Eppler. Eppler does it in a lower cost, lower reward way I suppose, but doesn't the "lower reward" aspect of that strategy just make it harder for it to ever be truly successful?

I think you're mistaking me for someone else -- I would have preferred he worked the edges, all I wanted that first off-season was for him to fix the pen and add pitching, I've been a run prevention guy for a lot longer than it's been fashionable.  My beefs were pretty consistent... I hated the free pass people gave him and believed his work with the farm was atrocious.

Sorry.... but I never agreed with everyone here that wrote everything off as a case " It's not his fault look at what he had handed to him".  I've said rather often that I didn't believe he had it all that bad -- and no, my view didn't change as things went sideways.  Mike Trout, Cron, Richards, Shoemaker, Grichuk, and Chatwood in the farm system.  The still in their primes Kendrick, Aybar, Trumbo, Walden, Weaver, and Santana, -- Haren was tapering off but still effective even if he did have a disastrous season his final year in Anaheim.  JD was unlucky with Bourjos and the injury bug but he still had serviceable to above average vets in Callaspo, Hunter and a back from the dead Morales.   He was also gifted with 350 million dollars worth of FA money at hello.. 

I've never faulted him for AP, and I'm one of the very few that believes his Grienke trade was as good a use of organizational currently and max return on value as we have EVER seen in Anaheim, but there isn't a single aspect of the team you can point to that anyone can argue was better when he left it than when he got here and I guess that leads to my final thought on the issue..

When push comes to shove, I just happen to believe that all those excuses people used for JD actually DO apply to Eppler, I wish Eppler had inherited the team JD did from perspective of team talent and payroll flexibility.  Despite your constantly shitting on him, Eppler's had to work with a lot less and been far better at working towards a goal than what we saw previously (this applies to Reagins too).  Also, like Dipoto he got saddled with his manager, but unlike JD he seems to have actually forged a working relationship there instead of the divisive BS we had to sit through for a few years.  I don't believe that Eppler and JD are working to achieve the same things in their first couple of seasons as GM.  I don't believe their actions dictate a similar approach, the moves might seem similar (I think thats what you're trying to hint at), but the actions seem to be driven by vastly different motives and needs.

Edit: FWIW -- getting out from ANY of the Wells contract is another JD gem.   I don't believe he ever got enough credit for that bit of magic.

 

[Oz27]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

I think you're mistaking me for someone else -- I would have preferred he worked the edges, all I wanted that first off-season was for him to fix the pen and add pitching, I've been a run prevention guy for a lot longer than it's been fashionable.  My beefs were pretty consistent... I hated the free pass people gave him and believed his work with the farm was atrocious.

Sorry.... but I never agreed with everyone here that wrote everything off as a case " It's not his fault look at what he had handed to him".  I've said rather often that I didn't believe he had it all that bad -- and no, my view didn't change as things went sideways.  Mike Trout, Cron, Richards, Shoemaker, Grichuk, and Chatwood in the farm system.  The still in their primes Kendrick, Aybar, Trumbo, Walden, Weaver, and Santana, -- Haren was tapering off but still effective even if he did have a disastrous season his final year in Anaheim.  JD was unlucky with Bourjos and the injury bug but he still had serviceable to above average vets in Callaspo, Hunter and a back from the dead Morales.   He was also gifted with 350 million dollars worth of FA money at hello.. 

I've never faulted him for AP, and I'm one of the very few that believes his Grienke trade was as good a use of organizational currently and max return on value as we have EVER seen in Anaheim, but there isn't a single aspect of the team you can point to that anyone can argue was better when he left it than when he got here and I guess that leads to my final thought on the issue..

When push comes to shove, I just happen to believe that all those excuses people used for JD actually DO apply to Eppler, I wish Eppler had inherited the team JD did from perspective of team talent and payroll flexibility.  Despite your constantly shitting on him, Eppler's had to work with a lot less and been far better at working towards a goal than what we saw previously (this applies to Reagins too).  Also, like Dipoto he got saddled with his manager, but unlike JD he seems to have actually forged a working relationship there instead of the divisive BS we had to sit through for a few years.  I don't believe that Eppler and JD are working to achieve the same things in their first couple of seasons as GM.  I don't believe their actions dictate a similar approach, the moves might seem similar (I think thats what you're trying to hint at), but the actions seem to be driven by vastly different motives and needs.

Edit: FWIW -- getting out from ANY of the Wells contract is another JD gem.   I don't believe he ever got enough credit for that bit of magic.

 

Okay, I guess I was thinking of someone else. For the record, I'm with you on Wells and Grienke. Grienke was a perfectly reasonable decision. That was a really good true talent team which needed a bit of a boost. Things collapsed in a way that wasn't very foreseeable but that season probably represented our best chance to win of that period so it was a very reasonable decision to go for it then. And yeah, I still don't understand how they found a way to get someone to take on any of Vernon's money. There were some disasters which were always easy to predict though (Blanton and, to an extent, Freese).

There is one point in there I very strongly disagree with you on though. You say Eppler has been far better at working towards a goal. What is it? When are we next thinking we can be a 90-win team? The goal seems to be to be kind of good over several years instead of aiming to be really good at a particular time. Perhaps I'm wrong about that, but I really hate any approach that doesn't involve a narrow target where you aim to be a true contender. It is entirely possible that Moreno is demanding we consistently "be competitive" and that is limiting what Eppler is doing. Either way, I really don't see it as being "far better at working towards a goal" ... well at least not an intelligent goal.

[Glen]

On 1/6/2017 at 2:05 PM, Erstad Grit said:

This is pretty much my thoughts as well,  except feeling like we let Nova slip by.  He would have added stability to the rotation and would have allowed one of those arms to add depth to the pen.  

It seems like Nova wanted to return to Pittsburgh. He praised their pitching coach and said he helped him turn his season around. I don't think there was a chance we were getting him.