The U.S. just murdered sixty civilians in Syria

[Amazing Larry]

39 minutes ago, wopphil said:

Damn dude, talk about anti-semitism. Maybe we are "infatuated" with Israel because they are a prosperous, democratic nation which shares our ideals? Because they are an exceptional ally and a bad-ass nation that can hold their own in the most dysfunctional part of the world?

Sorry wopphil but I had to laugh at this. That country would be a friggin grease spot if it weren't for the United States providing weapons and money. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

3 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

Not at all. But we've certainly been the nation most involved with sticking our fingers into the hornet's nest, perhaps because of oil interests but also the Israel infatuation (that is, because there's a lot of wealthy Jewish people in the US who financially support politicians and expect them to defend every little thing Israel does).

No youre starting to read the hamas pamphlets, AJ

Where you are correct in terms of israel having a strong lobby inside the US, with access to the govt, to say its stronger than the arab one (that of which big oil and control of the gulf is toed to) is extremely debateable. 

The fundamental reason we support the jews is simple, location location location...they are the most moderate (regardless of expansion) govt in the region, the closest to a westernized govt. For decades theyve been sort of the buffer both against assad, as well as saddam, and quadaffi (spelling) etc. There was also another factor...half the region buddied up with the soviets...regardless of how much wed like it not to be the case, oil IS the economy. Its not just cars, its anything with plastic. We can all turn in our cars and switch to bikes and prius', but as asia moves to cars, we all get new cellphones, tablets, computers etc etc, oil will continue to be the lynchpin to global economics.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Going in another direction, AJ, besr in mind that for all the problems we have caused, weve also spent more in terms of blood and money to try and assist the ME. The region hates us because of israel and our relationship...ignoring the humanitarian aid weve provided thoughout the region (as well as indonesia, north africa, etc). Weve armed the israelis, and they hate that. Weve sold the same weapons to the saudis, the egyptians, for the longest tike the iranians, the paks, etc. The russians equally provided (as well as the chinese, north koreans, cubans, etc).

But we'll never be viewed as "they intervened when saddam invaded kuwait". Or when the iranians (shia) were making their moves in the gulf in the 80s (a direct threat to the saudis, UAE, etc). They forget it was the muslims we intervened on behalf of in the balkans in the 90s (the one region were still liked by the muslims). They forget the reason we were in somalia.

Again, not at all sayijg our hands are clean. I dont disagree that getting out might actually do a lot of good. But i think regardless of what we do, we will still be blamed for everything. Case in point, the mosque takeover in mecxa in the late 70s (cant remember the name off the top of my head) was in turn blamed on us by the iranians, which in tjrn led to our pakistan embassy being overrun a la 'argo' the following day. For those keeping score, a sunnin extremist took over the holiest site in mecca during the haj, proclaimed himself the prophet and killed a ton of hostages over several days (sound like al baghdadi?), which the shia ayatollas blamed on us, causing more sunnis to overrun our embassy three countries away...

I just see extreme islam as a cancer. Ignoring it wont stop the spread.

[arch stanton]

I'll just take a second here to give a little technical info on bombing. Aircrews are given exact coordinates and visual data for the pre-selected targets. They go through exhaustive briefings with intel to make sure they have viable targets. Once airborne, they are linked to battlefield controllers who can see everything on their radar and targeting pods and have to ok any release of bombs.

There are always forward air controllers and air liaison troops in the area and with all due respect to the SEALs and the Navy PR machine, they are the baddest and ballsiest group on the planet. They spend days right in the think of it and feeding target data to the battlefield staff, close enough to feel the heat of the explosives when the bomb hits.

If they find a target of opportunity that wasn't part of the mission plan they still need go ahead approval which they normally don't get without FAC blessing. In short, if they hit civilians there were multiple miscues. I seriously doubt this was American planes.

[Lou]

3 hours ago, arch stanton said:

I'll just take a second here to give a little technical info on bombing. Aircrews are given exact coordinates and visual data for the pre-selected targets. They go through exhaustive briefings with intel to make sure they have viable targets. Once airborne, they are linked to battlefield controllers who can see everything on their radar and targeting pods and have to ok any release of bombs.

There are always forward air controllers and air liaison troops in the area and with all due respect to the SEALs and the Navy PR machine, they are the baddest and ballsiest group on the planet. They spend days right in the think of it and feeding target data to the battlefield staff, close enough to feel the heat of the explosives when the bomb hits.

If they find a target of opportunity that wasn't part of the mission plan they still need go ahead approval which they normally don't get without FAC blessing. In short, if they hit civilians there were multiple miscues. I seriously doubt this was American planes.

Thanks, arch.

my guess is 95% of the american public think actions like this are more akin to a video game. "There's the target...bomb the target"

 Congratulations. Proceed to next level.

[ten ocho recon scout]

8 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

Not at all. But we've certainly been the nation most involved with sticking our fingers into the hornet's nest, perhaps because of oil interests but also the Israel infatuation (that is, because there's a lot of wealthy Jewish people in the US who financially support politicians and expect them to defend every little thing Israel does).

One other thing to remember AJ, is that while we might have done it "the most", its more a byproduct of our ability...what i mean by that is we have schmoozed the sheiks, made a ton of money off them and in turn made them rich. That said, the russians, chinese, the western europeans etc all have just as much of a hand in there, weve just been able to manuever in front of them. The russians and french in particular have been close to the syrians for years. The britts wrote the maps. The paks have been exporting their proxy war for decades. The iranians have been involved in everything west of them they possibly could. Etc etc.

Everyone knows the keys to the world economy are under the arabian sand. The iranians and saudis are very well aware of that (as well as the iraqis and UAE). The local powers disguise it under the guise of religion, and finance literature that condemns the west (even if the royals themselves live identical to the west)., and keeps the people looking outward for someone to blame, instead of inward. The arab spring was the locals finally breaking out and going after the problems close to home. And no one is more aware of ehat happened than the saudis, and slightly behind the iranians (who are very aware the public is more and more steadily tiring of the control, making it possible for the complete opposite of 'argo' to happen in our lifetime).

Iran in particular is complex. Theyve been the bad guy forever (since the shah overthrow, the problems in the gulf in the 80s, their proxies in hezbollah/hamas, etc). Buttheyve emerged as increasingly powerful after our blunder in iraq (nice going, W). With the shia dominated iraq, iran just opened up the possibility of huge future revenue, which will make them more and more powerful....if we could somehow make nice with them (and them with us), get them and the israelis agree to coexist, the entire region could change. The iranian people for the most part i think are ready for it (i have a decent amount of persian friends who make it back to iran semi regularly). That could ultimately serve as the buffer of radical sunni extremism. (Or make it worse)

[ten ocho recon scout]

5 minutes ago, Lou said:

Thanks, arch.

my guess is 95% of the american public think actions like this are more akin to a video game. "There's the target...bomb the target"

 Congratulations. Proceed to next level.

I was pissed when i enlisted and found out i cant sprint as fast as i could in call of duty. And that jumping when someone is shooting at you doesn't make the bullet miss.

Its also a let down when you finally get to carry the machine gun you always wanted ..... to find out it weighs 30 pounds unloaded, which you will carry on a sling around your neck.

[Lou]

1 hour ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I was pissed when i enlisted and found out i cant sprint as fast as i could in call of duty. And that jumping when someone is shooting at you doesn't make the bullet miss.

Its also a let down when you finally get to carry the machine gun you always wanted ..... to find out it weighs 30 pounds unloaded, which you will carry on a sling around your neck.

lol @ your ignorance

everone knows that merely jumping won't make the bullet miss.  you have to jump AND do a twisting flip to avoid gunfire. 

rookie 

 

Edited July 23, 2016 by Lou

[Crampknees]

Lou's avatar gets me every time and now he is talking about jumps and twisting flips. 

[wopphil]

16 hours ago, Lawrence said:

Sorry wopphil but I had to laugh at this. That country would be a friggin grease spot if it weren't for the United States providing weapons and money. 

That holds true for many nations. It doesn't take from the fact that Israel is well organized, tough, disciplined, united, and has been able to hold it's own for 70 years.

[ten ocho recon scout]

17 hours ago, Lawrence said:

Sorry wopphil but I had to laugh at this. That country would be a friggin grease spot if it weren't for the United States providing weapons and money. 

Yeah, probably. But keep in mind, we pretty much armed all their neighbors with the same weapons. And what we didnt give their neighbors, the other side did. 

No way at all though that weve given them more money than the oil states themselves have provided and given to the cause. 

All things being equal 3-0 in wars against everyone around you is pretty impressive.

[NrM]

7 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Yeah, probably. But keep in mind, we pretty much armed all their neighbors with the same weapons. And what we didnt give their neighbors, the other side did. 

No way at all though that weve given them more money than the oil states themselves have provided and given to the cause. 

All things being equal 3-0 in wars against everyone around you is pretty impressive.

I'd say it's more than just impressive. A shitty swamp infested location in the middle east, with no valuable resources and very little military presence/experience, all the while being incredibly out numbered and surrounded by enemies. In less than 40-50 years they overcame all those odds, and established themselves as one of the most prosperous countries in the world.

But because they receive aid from their strongest alliance, that somehow marginalizes their status as a country?  Would you guys feel differently if they received their aid from Russia and Iran?

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

^second part is a very good point, and often forgotten. Like i said earlier, most in that region chose sides during the cold war. The bear fell, we prevailed. The israelis gambled and went with us (along with the saudis, jordan etc). But everyone is in bed with someone

[InsideThePark]

9 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

I'd say it's more than just impressive. A shitty swamp infested location in the middle east, with no valuable resources and very little military presence/experience, all the while being incredibly out numbered and surrounded by enemies. In less than 40-50 years they overcame all those odds, and established themselves as one of the most prosperous countries in the world.

But because they receive aid from their strongest alliance, that somehow marginalizes their status as a country?  Would you guys feel differently if they received their aid from Russia and Iran?

 

It's not even that so much as they shouldn't exist in the first place. Why do they exist? Because Hitler (total non sequitur), religion, and money. You remove religion from the equation and it doesn't happen. But because people actually believed God promised Abraham that his sons would rule over the land, a bunch of zionists (Christians and Jews) got together and made it happen. 

Having said all that, there's no doubt in my mind that they have a right to exist. The problem is that it created a messed up situation where there really are no good solutions for either side. And it didn't exactly help our standing with the Muslim world. It is the main reason why they declare war on the west.

[NrM]

1 hour ago, InsideThePark said:

It's not even that so much as they shouldn't exist in the first place. Why do they exist? Because Hitler (total non sequitur), religion, and money. You remove religion from the equation and it doesn't happen. But because people actually believed God promised Abraham that his sons would rule over the land, a bunch of zionists (Christians and Jews) got together and made it happen. 

 Extremely arbitrary and redundant. Almost feel like you are trying to bait me. Maybe you misinterpreted what I meant. I was responding to the people who always say "Israel would be nothing without the US". Israel has accomplished a lot as a country and it wasn't simply because the US gave them money. We give billions to many other countries in the middle east. And yet last I checked, they're still hanging and stoning women for being raped.

 

Quote

Having said all that, there's no doubt in my mind that they have a right to exist. The problem is that it created a messed up situation where there really are no good solutions for either side. And it didn't exactly help our standing with the Muslim world. It is the main reason why they declare war on the west.

I'm sure the Muslim world would love us if we didn't support Israel. I mean just look at what's happening in Europe. Living in pure harmony.

Sounds like you are blaming israel for the irrational hatred the muslim world has towards them and western society as a whole. Like blaming a rape victim for wearing scantily clad clothes instead of the rapist.

 

 

[InsideThePark]

24 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Not going to address your first point. It's extremely arbitrary and redundant. Almost feel like you are trying to bait me. Maybe you misinterpreted what I meant. I was responding to the people who always say "Israel would be nothing without the US".

 

I'm sure the Muslim world would love us if we didn't support Israel. I mean just look at what's happening in Europe. Living in pure harmony.

Sounds like you are blaming israel for the irrational hatred the muslim world has towards them and western society as a whole. Like blaming a rape victim for wearing scantily clad clothes instead of the rapist.

 

 

It's not arbitrary, pooz. It's what happened. People argue that they're just fighting over land... that is far from the whole story. The land is also holy to Muslims. If I'm not mistaken, they believe that Mohammed flew from Mecca to heaven and then to Jerusalem on a creature that looks like a winged horse with a humanoid face lol.

Silly shit if you ask me but that's another topic. Anyway, the issue is that the conflict is rooted in theological differences as much as anything else.

And what's happening in Europe proves my point. They helped support the creation of Israel. If it wasn't for that, they'd be killing each other instead.

[NrM]

6 minutes ago, InsideThePark said:

It's not arbitrary, pooz. It's what happened. People argue that they're just fighting over land... that is far from the whole story. The land is also holy to Muslims. If I'm not mistaken, they believe that Mohammed flew from Mecca to heaven and then to Jerusalem on a creature that looks like a winged horse with a humanoid face lol.

Silly shit if you ask me but that's another topic. Anyway, the issue is that the conflict is rooted in theological differences as much as anything else.

And what's happening in Europe proves my point. They helped support the creation of Israel. If it wasn't for that, they'd be killing each other instead.

Yep. That about did it.. My blood pressure is already high enough. Agree to disagree. gnight.

[InsideThePark]

10 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Yep. That about did it.. My blood pressure is already high enough. Agree to disagree. gnight.

Really not trying to anger you, pooz. Just trying to explain that there is some historical context behind all this madness. See you on the flip side.

[NrM]

13 minutes ago, InsideThePark said:

Really not trying to anger you, pooz. Just trying to explain that there is some historical context behind all this madness. See you on the flip side.

fuck you ima get the last word...

Muslims are subhuman and only exist to bring hatred and terror. The Jews should've realized they are incapable of rational thought and reason and let the subhumans live in their own little bubble. The Jews were very rude to not consider the feelings of the subhumans. I mean, they had it so good in Nazi Germany, why mess up a good thing? -ITP

Might be slightly hyperbolic, but it gets the point across.

k.. now I'm done.  later.

[InsideThePark]

5 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

fuck you ima get the last word...

Muslims are subhuman and only exist to bring hatred and terror. The Jews should've realized they are incapable of rational thought and reason and let the subhumans live in their own little bubble. The Jews were very rude to not consider the feelings of the subhumans. I mean, they had it so good in Nazi Germany, why mess up a good thing? -ITP

Might be slightly hyperbolic, but it gets the point across.

k.. now I'm done.  later.

Aside from that last part, that is something cals could have authored.

[nate]

Soldiers sign up for war, citizens don't.  There is never a reason to kill the innocent to advance or end a war.  That is a savage mentality.

[Amazing Larry]

9 minutes ago, calscuf said:

I like that you can't tell Nate is Jewish in his picture.  Mr. Meeseeks on the other hand...

lol

[NrM]

8 hours ago, calscuf said:

I like that you can't tell Nate is Jewish in his picture.  Mr. Meeseeks on the other hand...

[NrM]

7 minutes ago, calscuf said:

Ahhh, there's those Semitic good looks were always hearing about!