Minasian season ending press conference notes

[Erstad Grit]

9 minutes ago, Angelsfan1984 said:

The analytics said that Nevin had an 82% chance to go 73-89 again. Therefore he was pinch hit for. 

For Arte this is more than 3 times through the lineup. 

[Angel Oracle]

13 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

What if its not the analytics that's the problem but rather how they're being used.  Hard to argue with the success of analytics driven teams like LA,TB, Baltimore, The Professor and Mary Ann.

Its not analytics that's the problem.  Nobody was saying the analytics were an issue when they "went for it" either...

If so, the question then becomes who messed up applying the analytics?

Minasian?   Nevin?   Wise?    Hezel? 
Thames?   Plantier?

Edited October 4, 2023 by Angel Oracle

[Angelsfan1984]

1 hour ago, Erstad Grit said:

For Arte this is more than 3 times through the lineup. 

He was the starting pitcher then came in to try and close the game after giving up 14 runs in the 3rd.

[Inside Pitch]

Are Angel fans back to thinking stats are bad and shit?  I just want to know how dumb the fanbase is currently.

[Stradling]

6 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Are Angel fans back to thinking stats are bad and shit?  I just want to know how dumb the fanbase is currently.

You know the answer to that last question. Consistency of thought isn’t a strength. 

[T.G.]

11 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Hard to argue with the success of analytics driven teams like LA,TB, Baltimore, The Professor and Mary Ann.

Well done.

[Chuck]

11 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

What if its not the analytics that's the problem but rather how they're being used.  Hard to argue with the success of analytics driven teams like LA,TB, Baltimore, The Professor and Mary Ann.

Its not analytics that's the problem.  Nobody was saying the analytics were an issue when they "went for it" either...

^

[AngelsLakersFan]

14 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

What if its not the analytics that's the problem but rather how they're being used.  Hard to argue with the success of analytics driven teams like LA,TB, Baltimore, The Professor and Mary Ann.

Its not analytics that's the problem.  Nobody was saying the analytics were an issue when they "went for it" either...

I know I said this during the season, but I get the vibe that the Angels analytics team is a bunch of nerds that don't understand baseball, and the Angels coaching staff is a bunch of jocks that don't understand statistics.

[Inside Pitch]

10 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I know I said this during the season, but I get the vibe that the Angels analytics team is a bunch of nerds that don't understand baseball, and the Angels coaching staff is a bunch of jocks that don't understand statistics.

Someone should have paid extra to have Ippie translate stats to baseball.  Effing Arte and his penny-pinching!

[Jeff Fletcher]

21 hours ago, Slegnaac said:

Surely Perry mean Forensic Analysis and not autopsy.

Funny aside:

Early in 2022, when things weren't going right for the Angels offense, Joe Maddon shook up the batting order and he basically admitted it wasn't for any reason more than just for the sake of making a change.

He called it "rearranging deck chairs on (pause) the big boat."

Maddon was halfway through his sentence when he realized he was about to compare his team to the Titanic.

[James]

Analytics dont really matter when you are having to trot out players like Velazquez far too frequently. Those numbers say, he is out. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

22 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I know I said this during the season, but I get the vibe that the Angels analytics team is a bunch of nerds that don't understand baseball, and the Angels coaching staff is a bunch of jocks that don't understand statistics.

I don't know if I'd go that far. I would say that you shouldn't just classify all "analytics" guys as the same. Some are better than others, even if they are all "analytics" guys.

My sense is that the Angels weren't relying too much or too little on "analytics," but maybe that the particular analytics they were using weren't the best for the particular players/coaches they had.

[Ron Mexico]

25 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I don't know if I'd go that far. I would say that you shouldn't just classify all "analytics" guys as the same. Some are better than others, even if they are all "analytics" guys.

My sense is that the Angels weren't relying too much or too little on "analytics," but maybe that the particular analytics they were using weren't the best for the particular players/coaches they had.

Hey Jeff why did you disappoint us with your 3 manager  candidates?

[Erstad Grit]

11 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Are Angel fans back to thinking stats are bad and shit?  I just want to know how dumb the fanbase is currently.

I'm saying the core problem is Arte, and until he sells or gets out of the way, everything else will have minimal effect. 

[Duren, Duren]

Assistant coaches contribute basically in two ways. 

1 - away from games. Helping players refine their game. At bat, on the field, on the bases. And for pitchers,  generally, their technique and approach to hitters. In this mode they are teachers and liaisons with the manager. Helping communication both ways.

2 - in game managerial advice and in play decision advisors. Each coach has input about the game as it unfolds. Especially the pitching coach. That's a reason a manager picks assistants he's in sync with. And of course the first and third base coaches react to live game play and assess the odds for conservative or more daring base running. 

I should also add the bullpen coach, who has a more specialized focus during games. And communicates more with the pitching coach. 

My point is that any new manager will pick assistants that he feels comfortable with and trusts.  They may already be lined up and/or involve new choices. Including the current Angel assistants. So I would strongly expect at least some new assistants. Especially pitching coach, where in game management is most critical. 

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

37 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

My sense is that the Angels weren't relying too much or too little on "analytics," but maybe that the particular analytics they were using weren't the best for the particular players/coaches they had.

I mean, I think that's basically what I am saying. 

When I hear that they are teaching their pitchers to go for strikeouts, I think this is a great example of nerds who don't understand baseball. Obviously the stats will say that the strikeout is the best outcome for the pitcher, but a pitching coach should also be able to tell you that the goal is to prevent runs and get outs not just strike guys out. 

There is obviously a miscommunication there somewhere or just sheer incompetence.

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I mean, I think that's basically what I am saying. 

When I hear that they are teaching their pitchers to go for strikeouts, I think this is a great example of nerds who don't understand baseball. Obviously the stats will say that the strikeout is the best outcome for the pitcher, but a pitching coach should also be able to tell you that the goal is to prevent runs and get outs not just strike guys out. 

There is obviously a miscommunication there somewhere or just sheer incompetence.

But inside of saying they are “focusing on strike outs” what they are really saying is, “this is the most effective pitch in this scenario, from this pitchers arsenal, to get a swing and miss, against this type of hitter, based on his weaknesses”. So it isn’t some nerd simply saying throw a sweeper. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

But inside of saying they are “focusing on strike outs” what they are really saying is, “this is the most effective pitch in this scenario, from this pitchers arsenal, to get a swing and miss, against this type of hitter, based on his weaknesses”. So it isn’t some nerd simply saying throw a sweeper. 

No you are right, this isnt just some nerd, this is a huuuuuge nerd saying "throw a sweeper."

[Slegnaac]

I would suggest that the best outcome for a pitcher is 3 pitches for 3 outs.

[AngelsLakersFan]

You guys noticed this was the "year of the sweeper" right? This isn't because every org independently discovered this concept over the off season. This is the result of group think, and copycat management. A couple of organizations are having success and everyone else is trying to copy them.

It's no surprise that a lot of organizations are mimicking the others without fully grasping what processes those organizations put in place to truly make them successful.

[Hubs]

12 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Are Angel fans back to thinking stats are bad and shit?  I just want to know how dumb the fanbase is currently.

I don't think analytics are dumb for the record, I think they're a tool to be used.

But pulling Kershaw when he was pitching a perfect game... NO.

And other issues too, in game decisions should be made my the manager, not according to a spreadsheet or bullpen matrix. And I hate micro managers in all aspects of life, which is what it seems like Minasian is. In one of Maddon's comments from his book, he took exception to being told to pull Trout in a blowout win. I have no problem with Perry talking to Joe about lineups or health concerns...but that should be before the game. Not during and it shouldn't have been an order. 

[Stradling]

17 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I don't think analytics are dumb for the record, I think they're a tool to be used.

But pulling Kershaw when he was pitching a perfect game... NO.

And other issues too, in game decisions should be made my the manager, not according to a spreadsheet or bullpen matrix. And I hate micro managers in all aspects of life, which is what it seems like Minasian is. In one of Maddon's comments from his book, he took exception to being told to pull Trout in a blowout win. I have no problem with Perry talking to Joe about lineups or health concerns...but that should be before the game. Not during and it shouldn't have been an order. 

In game decisions are made by the manager. 

[Hubs]

6 minutes ago, Stradling said:

In game decisions are made by the manager. 

Well they used to be, but who knows with this generation of front office executives. 

[Hubs]

4 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Well they used to be, but who knows with this generation of front office executives. 

FYI this isn't just with the Angels. 

Padres https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/padres/story/2023-09-27/padres-bob-melvin-aj-preller-rift-manager-gm-decision-meeting

Astros https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/34987626/owner-jim-crane-astros-discussions-gm-james-click-deal

Other teams (from 2014?) https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2014/02/10/baseball-managers-gms-embrace-relationship-analytics/5383601/

 

[Stradling]

7 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Well they used to be, but who knows with this generation of front office executives. 

So you pretending means more than what Fletcher shared about the situation?  Ok.