Angels suffer more injuries.

[Swordsman78]

2 hours ago, Blarg said:

That shit has to stop. The 2009 team used 46, one was Adenhardt. 

This is an astounding stat.  Doubt the Braves or Orioles used anywhere close to that.  Which is why they are in first place

[Angel Oracle]

Ok, to those who disagree, if it isn’t an issue with the medical, training, and conditioning staffs, then what is it that causes something like this (top 1/3 in MLB in most days lost for 7 out of past 9 seasons)?

And the answer isn’t simply that’s baseball.   That’s only if it happens a couple of times in 9 seasons.

[Jeff Fletcher]

11 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Ok, to those who disagree, if it isn’t an issue with the medical, training, and conditioning staffs, then what is it that causes something like this (top 1/3 in MLB in most days lost for 7 out of past 9 seasons)?

And the answer isn’t simply that’s baseball.   That’s only if it happens a couple of times in 9 seasons.

It’s because they’re old, on average. 

[Swordsman78]

9 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Ok, to those who disagree, if it isn’t an issue with the medical, training, and conditioning staffs, then what is it that causes something like this (top 1/3 in MLB in most days lost for 7 out of past 9 seasons)?

And the answer isn’t simply that’s baseball.   That’s only if it happens a couple of times in 9 seasons.

Yeah they need to do a deep dive into the injuries that caused the IL over the years.   See how many were avoidable  via better stretching, conditioning, etc.

Then see look at the players and see what their injury history was prior to coming to the Angels big league team.

 Then see how many were because guys "felt something" and maybe didn't really want to play.

[Jeff Fletcher]

10 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

Yeah they need to do a deep dive into the injuries that caused the IL over the years.   See how many were avoidable  via better stretching, conditioning, etc.

Then see look at the players and see what their injury history was prior to coming to the Angels big league team.

 Then see how many were because guys "felt something" and maybe didn't really want to play.

First, “they” do a deep dive on every injury to try to find out why it happened and if it’s preventable. “They” just don’t tell us what they found.

if you look in the Angels media guide at all the strength and conditioning and medical people, they keep cycling through new ones every 2-3 years, not to mention there being a new GM every 5 years. 
 

I have been working on a story for a little while and it’s really really hard because “injury” is such a vague term. A guy getting hit in the face by a pitch is very different than a stiff back which is very different than a torn UCL which is very different than a strained groin. 
 

You can’t even really talk about them together because the causes are so different. That’s why this story may go nowhere. 
 

I will tell you that so far I’ve looked at 20-23 and tried to isolate only the muscular injuries (oblique, hamstring, groin, etc) and I found the Angels are near the top this year, but in the last 3 they were basically right in the middle. 
 

And then I talked to someone who told me I can’t even classify obliques the same as hamstrings so now I think maybe all my data is worthless. 
 

Also, sometimes the reported injury is bogus in the first place. And sometimes guy are hurt and don’t even go on the IL, as we’ve seen. 
 

but my best guess is most of the problem comes back to my favoeite topic: the farm system. If you’re not getting young players to the big leagues, you’re relying on old ones. And they get hurt more. 

[BTH]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

First, “they” do a deep dive on every injury to try to find out why it happened and if it’s preventable. “They” just don’t tell us what they found.

The one area where I question the medical staff is the number of strains.

Could those be avoided with a better training regiment?

Daniel, Suarez, Rendon, Moore, Neto, Adell, Devenski, Canning, Loup, and Barria all dealt with strains of some sort.

Although the latter three or four might’ve been phantom IL stints.

[Angel Oracle]

This does seem to circle back then to Arte Moreno’s insistence on emphasizing splashy veterans over the farm system development?

Fletch has a good point regarding the cycling of medical, strength, and conditioning teams every 2-3 years?

Is it due to Arte Moreno ignoring the aging veterans as possibly the main reason for the injury epidemic and resultant struggles the past 8 years, and looking for scapegoats?

That man (Moreno) has probably done more to disrupt this franchise than the Autrys or Disney ever did.

Has he FINALLY learned his lesson come this off-season?   I don’t know that answer, but trading Quero for a pitcher with gopher ball tendencies isn’t inspiring.

No more 30+ big splash FAs, and that includes the soon to be 30 Ohtani.

Focus on the draft, int’l signings, and trading for guys under 30!

Edited September 13, 2023 by Angel Oracle

[Stradling]

2 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

This does seem to circle back then to Arte Moreno’s insistence on emphasizing splashy veterans over the farm system development?

Fletch has a good point regarding the cycling of medical, strength, and conditioning teams every 2-3 years?

Is it due to Arte Moreno ignoring the aging veterans as possibly the main reason for the injury epidemic and resultant struggles the past 8 years, and looking for scapegoats?

That man (Moreno) has probably done more to disrupt this franchise than the Autrys or Disney ever did.

Has he FINALLY learned his lesson come this off-season?   I don’t know that answer, but trading Quero for a pitcher with gopher ball tendencies isn’t inspiring.

No more 30+ big splash FAs, and that includes the soon to be 30 Ohtani.

Focus on the draft, int’l signings, and trading for guys under 30!

Or it isn’t just big splash guys it’s all guys over 30.  Cron wasn’t a big splash, Moore wasn’t a big splash, Devenski, Loup Tepera weren’t big splash.  They are all guys you fill out a roster with.  The fact that Bachman, Joyce, Adell, Rengifo, Canning, Barria, Neto, Suarez suffered from strains and their average age is probably 24 should tell you it isn’t some Arte big splash thing. It should also tell you that a lot of home grown players are coming up.   It’s just a horrendous year for injuries. 

[Angel Oracle]

2 hours ago, Stradling said:

Or it isn’t just big splash guys it’s all guys over 30.  Cron wasn’t a big splash, Moore wasn’t a big splash, Devenski, Loup Tepera weren’t big splash.  They are all guys you fill out a roster with.  The fact that Bachman, Joyce, Adell, Rengifo, Canning, Barria, Neto, Suarez suffered from strains and their average age is probably 24 should tell you it isn’t some Arte big splash thing. It should also tell you that a lot of home grown players are coming up.   It’s just a horrendous year for injuries. 

Understood, so then they better be focusing on why so many suffered strains this season, and nip it in the bud.

[Stradling]

21 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Understood, so then they better be focusing on why so many suffered strains this season, and nip it in the bud.

Which Fletcher said they look at every injury and analyze it. 

[T.G.]

10 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Which Fletcher said they look at every injury and analyze it. 

You have to remember every time AO catches a cold, he changes doctors.

[Jeff Fletcher]

9 hours ago, BTH said:

The one area where I question the medical staff is the number of strains.

Could those be avoided with a better training regiment?

Daniel, Suarez, Rendon, Moore, Neto, Adell, Devenski, Canning, Loup, and Barria all dealt with strains of some sort.

Although the latter three or four might’ve been phantom IL stints.

I think you should remove any pitcher arm injury from there. Pitchers hurt their arms/elbows/shoulder because pitching is unnatural. That’s not the same as a strained hamstring. 
 

As for all the other strains, I filtered out all of what I believed were the preventable ones (hamstring, groin, oblique, calf, lat, biceps) and found that the Angels were a little higher than normal this year, but it’s not at all a trend. The last three years they were average or better. 
 

And you’re right about some of those being phantoms. (You can guess which ones.)

I will get to this story eventually but I don’t think it will ultimately have the answers you want because it’s such a big, complicated, vague, topic. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

8 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Is it due to Arte Moreno ignoring the aging veterans as possibly the main reason for the injury epidemic and resultant struggles the past 8 years, and looking for scapegoats?

I don’t think Arte has any involvement in firing trainers. I think he has involvement in firing GMs and then the new GM wants his own people. 

[Angel Oracle]

13 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I think you should remove any pitcher arm injury from there. Pitchers hurt their arms/elbows/shoulder because pitching is unnatural. That’s not the same as a strained hamstring. 
 

As for all the other strains, I filtered out all of what I believed were the preventable ones (hamstring, groin, oblique, calf, lat, biceps) and found that the Angels were a little higher than normal this year, but it’s not at all a trend. The last three years they were average or better. 
 

And you’re right about some of those being phantoms. (You can guess which ones.)

I will get to this story eventually but I don’t think it will ultimately have the answers you want because it’s such a big, complicated, vague, topic. 

Agreed that this is a very important subject, as it’s contributed to 8 straight losing seasons.   At some point, it has to stabilize.

[DCAngelsFan]

8 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

This does seem to circle back then to Arte Moreno’s insistence on emphasizing splashy veterans over the farm system development?

Fletch has a good point regarding the cycling of medical, strength, and conditioning teams every 2-3 years?

Is it due to Arte Moreno ignoring the aging veterans as possibly the main reason for the injury epidemic and resultant struggles the past 8 years, and looking for scapegoats?

That man (Moreno) has probably done more to disrupt this franchise than the Autrys or Disney ever did.

Has he FINALLY learned his lesson come this off-season?   I don’t know that answer, but trading Quero for a pitcher with gopher ball tendencies isn’t inspiring.

No more 30+ big splash FAs, and that includes the soon to be 30 Ohtani.

Focus on the draft, int’l signings, and trading for guys under 30!

All in on the draft, international draft and signings.

And my frustration with Arte probably can't get any worse.  He has the worst string of debacle signings and trades of any owner, probably ever - he needs to sell, and take Carpino with him.  

Yet, these injuries - Trout's broken hamate, Walsh's Covid neurological injury, Ward being beaned,  Urshela's broken pelvis, Rengifo, (arguably) these aren't conditioning or age issues.  (Rendon, really, does it matter?)

But set them and possibly pitching aside, and yes, I still feel like there's something wrong, here.  Their home games are played in some of the most forgiving weather of any team. Young guys are being nicked and injured in ways that suggest their core strength may be neglected (obliques, lower-back, hamstrings) - sounds like they need to spend more time doing yoga and less time pumping iron.  

Looks to me like their strength and conditioning staff are kind of the typical "baseball trainer" in their background - if it were me, I'd look for someone(s) with kinesiology / biomechanics backgrounds to focus on injury prevention and not merely "performance".

Ah, that's right, Arte would rather pay "stars" like Rendon, Hamilton, and Pujols than invest in something like that ...

 

 

 

 

[BTH]

39 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I don’t think Arte has any involvement in firing trainers. I think he has involvement in firing GMs and then the new GM wants his own people. 

When they’ve fired GMs in the past under Arte, have they ever gone outside the org (i.e. use a consulatint firm) to conduct the search or find candidates?

Letting Carpino run the search process every time seems to lead nowhere.

[Jeff Fletcher]

7 minutes ago, BTH said:

When they’ve fired GMs in the past under Arte, have they ever gone outside the org (i.e. use a consulatint firm) to conduct the search or find candidates?

Letting Carpino run the search process every time seems to lead nowhere.

Not to my knowledge

[Blarg]

11 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

It’s because they’re old, on average. 

I guess Trout and Rendon fall into the over 30 category but you have damn near everybody, regardless of age, dropping out this season. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

Since no one may ever see this data, since I don't know what's going to happen with the story. Here is it.

"Muscle injuries" (hamstring, groin, oblique, lat, calf, biceps. Nothing with contusion or fracture. No pitcher arm injuries)

2020-23

Angels: 28 IL uses, average of 26.5 days missed.

MLB average: 25.1, 32 days.

(The inference from fewer days could be that the Angels have more "phantom" ILs in here, or else that their standard for putting guys on the IL has been lower, when other teams may just have the guy sit out for 4-5 days but the Angels put him on the IL for 10. I think it's probably neither, but just a fluke of the sample size.

23 only

Angels: 10 (5th most), average 26.1 days

MLB average: 6.2 and 33.7 days

[Jeff Fletcher]

6 minutes ago, Blarg said:

I guess Trout and Rendon fall into the over 30 category but you have damn near everybody, regardless of age, dropping out this season. 

This season they have had more of all kinds of injuries (except pitcher injuries, which are still pretty good) to all kinds of players. Considering that all the training/medical staff this year has been the same as last year, I think you can discount blaming them. The difference is the players.

Also, it's possible that this whole discussion is as simple as this:

Trout and Rendon are injury prone. If two of your highest paid players are not on the field, it's going to magnify all else that's going on. The Dodgers have a million injuries, but Betts and Freeman are out there every day. The Braves pitching staff has had a million injuries, but Acuna and Riley and Olson are out there every day.

[Duren, Duren]

Really curious how some teams seem to be injury prone for multiple years in a row or for a short time frame. 

Bad luck certainly a big part of the equation. But multiple years with continued bad luck only? 

It happens in all sports. The Montreal Canadiens led the NHL in injuries or were near the top three years in a row. This off season they fired their training staff. Likely out of frustration and trying to create a more positive, trusting mindset. 

It's really hard to find a definitive cause. Players not in the greatest shape? Bad methodology for conditioning in terms of dealing with the most stress prone body parts? Age leading to decline? Over aggressiveness and too much extra effort leading to more in game risks? 

The oblique injuries could be a result or partial result of poor form on swings. Over swinging for power for instance. We've seen Ohtani,Trout and others almost come out of their shoes on some swings. Lots of stress and strain. 

Just the tip of an unfathomable iceberg really with this musing until more empirical medical data reveals more. If even possible given the variety of injuries.

I return to Mike Marshall. 1974 Cy Young winner. A deep thinker who became a professor of kinesiology at Michigan I believe. As a player he specialized in the screwball. Notorious for it's potential in causing serious arm damage. But he understood exactly how to master the pitch with the least risk because he knew his body and found the perfect form for himself. And he was an elite reliever for a number of years. 

He was a rare exception, but science and focussed training could at least mitigate some risks. 

 

[Swordsman78]

1 hour ago, DCAngelsFan said:

All in on the draft, international draft and signings.

And my frustration with Arte probably can't get any worse.  He has the worst string of debacle signings and trades of any owner, probably ever - he needs to sell, and take Carpino with him.  

Yet, these injuries - Trout's broken hamate, Walsh's Covid neurological injury, Ward being beaned,  Urshela's broken pelvis, Rengifo, (arguably) these aren't conditioning or age issues.  (Rendon, really, does it matter?)

But set them and possibly pitching aside, and yes, I still feel like there's something wrong, here.  Their home games are played in some of the most forgiving weather of any team. Young guys are being nicked and injured in ways that suggest their core strength may be neglected (obliques, lower-back, hamstrings) - sounds like they need to spend more time doing yoga and less time pumping iron.  

Looks to me like their strength and conditioning staff are kind of the typical "baseball trainer" in their background - if it were me, I'd look for someone(s) with kinesiology / biomechanics backgrounds to focus on injury prevention and not merely "performance".

Ah, that's right, Arte would rather pay "stars" like Rendon, Hamilton, and Pujols than invest in something like that ...

 

 

 

 

This is a really good take.

I like that you are not just suggesting they "shrug their shoulders and say Oh Well", but are actually recommending a course of action.   Your point about strengthing the core is on point.   Maybe they are overly  muscle bound.

[Swordsman78]

50 minutes ago, BTH said:

When they’ve fired GMs in the past under Arte, have they ever gone outside the org (i.e. use a consulatint firm) to conduct the search or find candidates?

Letting Carpino run the search process every time seems to lead nowhere.

Almost everyone that got fired by Arte was not the problem.   Just knee jerk firing good people is not conducive to building a strong foundation for a winning culture.

[BTH]

5 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Not to my knowledge

Well, maybe they should do that next time instead of letting Carpino hire a 5th GM.

[BTH]

4 hours ago, Swordsman78 said:

Almost everyone that got fired by Arte was not the problem.   Just knee jerk firing good people is not conducive to building a strong foundation for a winning culture.

What good people are there that they shouldn’t fire?

The entire org is a dumpster fire.

Player development is awful.

When your strategy is to draft near-MLB players and then call them up quickly, you’re admitting that you can’t develop players on your own.