Rooting for Rengifo

[WicketMaiden]

19 minutes ago, rageous said:

Admit it Rengifo sucks.

His defense has not been very good and his bat is almost non existent.

And it's not like he's getting limited playing time as he is starting every day and not producing at all.

He's hitting 31 Wrc+ for the year now.

No.

He is an infielder playing the outfield for the first time, so I'll give him a pass on D.

He was called up on the 17th June, give him a chance @rageous, major league baseball is really bloody hard to do and it takes time to adjust to.

Sure he hasn't been setting the world alight, but I don't really care so much about what he does now as much as what he does next year and beyond. He is only 24, Fletch was 24 when he figured it out, Walsh was 26. This is a learning curve for him, let him learn and see where he is after a couple of months of regular playing time. 

 

[DMVol]

Gosselin has earned more AB’s....Rengifo hasn’t....

[failos]

24 minutes ago, WicketMaiden said:

I'll give him a pass on D.

Gross

[Jason]

Still rooting for him but he appears to not be a very good player 

[DMVol]

On 6/20/2021 at 10:37 AM, Angels 1961 said:

Rengifo needs to be in lineup so Jose Iglesias should be traded. Iglesias is not part of future for halos. 

If Iglesias is traded, I’d put Fletcher at SS and leave Gosselin in the lineup at 2b…our best middle infielders are a few years from the bigs so let Gosselin play out the year..

[rageous]

33 minutes ago, WicketMaiden said:

No.

He is an infielder playing the outfield for the first time, so I'll give him a pass on D.

He was called up on the 17th June, give him a chance @rageous, major league baseball is really bloody hard to do and it takes time to adjust to.

Sure he hasn't been setting the world alight, but I don't really care so much about what he does now as much as what he does next year and beyond. He is only 24, Fletch was 24 when he figured it out, Walsh was 26. This is a learning curve for him, let him learn and see where he is after a couple of months of regular playing time. 

 

Players make adjustments and get better but you do not go from hitting pretty much nothing to be being productive.  Players like Fletch and Walsh figured it out in the minors making adjustments and started producing in the majors when called up.  Rengifo looks like what we saw from Adell and Brandon Woods where they are hurting the team by being in the lineup every day.

[Angels Fan Forever]

It's been 8 games...

Relax.

[Blarg]

3 hours ago, rageous said:

Players make adjustments and get better but you do not go from hitting pretty much nothing to be being productive.  Players like Fletch and Walsh figured it out in the minors making adjustments and started producing in the majors when called up.  Rengifo looks like what we saw from Adell and Brandon Woods where they are hurting the team by being in the lineup every day.

Fletcher was hitting pretty much nothing the month of April and half of May after 3 seasons in the majors. I think Rengifo needs a little more than 12 games before you give up on him. 

[DMVol]

17 hours ago, Blarg said:

Fletcher was hitting pretty much nothing the month of April and half of May after 3 seasons in the majors. I think Rengifo needs a little more than 12 games before you give up on him. 

Fair point....but the bigger sample size (565 AB's combined in 19, 20, 21) isn't very pretty..... 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rengilu01.shtml

 

[Lou]

I see some of you are coming around to my opinion of Rengifo.

[WicketMaiden]

26 minutes ago, Lou said:

I see some of you are coming around to my opinion of Rengifo.

What is your opinion on Rengifo @Lou, I've been back through the thread and can't find it. 

[Blarg]

He's a maybe.

[Lou]

2 minutes ago, WicketMaiden said:

What is your opinion on Rengifo @Lou, I've been back through the thread and can't find it. 

Not in this thread. Since the day I first saw him play, I've been saying he's a dime-a-dozen player. Just a guy, if you will.  He has never impressed me. 

I recall someone actually stating he could become another Jean Segura. 

Yes, i laughed.

[rageous]

18 hours ago, Blarg said:

Fletcher was hitting pretty much nothing the month of April and half of May after 3 seasons in the majors. I think Rengifo needs a little more than 12 games before you give up on him. 

Difference is that Fletcher is a much better defender than Rengifo and that is where he provides most of his value.

[WicketMaiden]

3 hours ago, rageous said:

Difference is that Fletcher is a much better defender than Rengifo and that is where he provides most of his value.

Do you have any information to back that up? 

David Fletcher bWAR:

2018 1.0 Offensive WAR 1.0 Defensive WAR

2019 2.4 Offensive WAR 1.7 Defensive WAR

2020 1.4 Offensive WAR 0.7 Defensive WAR

Seems to suggest he provides more offensive value than defensive value.

[rageous]

38 minutes ago, WicketMaiden said:

Do you have any information to back that up? 

David Fletcher bWAR:

2018 1.0 Offensive WAR 1.0 Defensive WAR

2019 2.4 Offensive WAR 1.7 Defensive WAR

2020 1.4 Offensive WAR 0.7 Defensive WAR

Seems to suggest he provides more offensive value than defensive value.

You probably don't understand oWar versus dWar but oWar counts hitting stats, running stats plus adjustment based on position.

You should look at OPS+ or WRC+ for more accurate stat on just hitting.

[WicketMaiden]

33 minutes ago, rageous said:

You probably don't understand oWar versus dWar but oWar counts hitting stats, running stats plus adjustment based on position.

You should look at OPS+ or WRC+ for more accurate stat on just hitting.

Nice deflection. Your point was Fletcher's main value is defence, not offence. 

So I'll ask again, do you have ANY information to back up your position?

[rageous]

1 hour ago, WicketMaiden said:

Nice deflection. Your point was Fletcher's main value is defence, not offence. 

So I'll ask again, do you have ANY information to back up your position?

You should look at Hitting, Defense, and Position Adjustment as a separate stat if you want to look at value.

And to look at value based on Hitting versus Defense you can look at Offensive Runs Above Replacement and Defense Above Replacement which are Rbat and Rfield on BRef and Batting and Fielding on Value part on FG.  Fletcher is -14 on Rbat and 27 on Rfield for his career and -5.9 on Batting and 20.3 on Fielding on the Fangraphs side.  You are welcome for looking up those stats for you.

[WicketMaiden]

43 minutes ago, rageous said:

You should look at Hitting, Defense, and Position Adjustment as a separate stat if you want to look at value.

And to look at value based on Hitting versus Defense you can look at Offensive Runs Above Replacement and Defense Above Replacement which are Rbat and Rfield on BRef and Batting and Fielding on Value part on FG.  Fletcher is -14 on Rbat and 27 on Rfield for his career and -5.9 on Batting and 20.3 on Fielding on the Fangraphs side.  You are welcome for looking up those stats for you.

Taking one small component of WAR and making an assessment based on that particular stat seems really rather foolish to me. But hey, each to their own. Think I'll stick with the full assessment, as these smaller components you are hanging your hat on are assessed and aggregated into a full picture by experts in the field, and that picture says Fletch offers more value to the team on Offence than Defence when all things are considered. Now you can argue all day long about it, but that's just a fact.

(You can insert your own snarky rejoinder here, you seem to like those).

Enjoy your evening.

[rageous]

6 minutes ago, WicketMaiden said:

Taking one small component of WAR and making an assessment based on that particular stat seems really rather foolish to me. But hey, each to their own. Think I'll stick with the full assessment, as these smaller components you are hanging your hat on are assessed and aggregated into a full picture by experts in the field, and that picture says Fletch offers more value to the team on Offence than Defence when all things are considered. Now you can argue all day long about it, but that's just a fact.

(You can insert your own snarky rejoinder here, you seem to like those).

Enjoy your evening.

You are the one that brought WAR into this conversation and summed up oWAR versus dWAR to somehow show that he is a valuable hitter versus his defense.  The fact is most of Fletcher's value comes from the fact that he is able to play few of the most important defensive position in the game at a really good to really good level.  His bat has been below league average every year except for last year which was slightly above average.  

[WicketMaiden]

15 hours ago, rageous said:

You are the one that brought WAR into this conversation and summed up oWAR versus dWAR to somehow show that he is a valuable hitter versus his defense.  The fact is most of Fletcher's value comes from the fact that he is able to play few of the most important defensive position in the game at a really good to really good level.  His bat has been below league average every year except for last year which was slightly above average.  

Yes I brought WAR into the conversation as that is the go to assessment of value statistic according to experts in the field that are way more qualified than you and I as fans. I read your post which said: 

 

22 hours ago, rageous said:

Difference is that Fletcher is a much better defender than Rengifo and that is where he provides most of his value.

So, you claim Fletcher provides most of his value on D and the stats don't back that up, WAR calculates all offensive value, not just hitting, and according to WAR Fletcher offers more value to the team on offence than on defence. So I asked you to provide some details to back up your assessment and you came back with components of the WAR calculation, but seem to want to ignore the actual full WAR calculation which states quite clearly that Fletcher offers the team more WAR on offence than defence. You can see the folly in this thinking surely? It's akin to the blindfolded scientist feeling an elephant's trunk and claiming he is holding a snake.

I fully agree Fletch's defensive flexibility is an added value to the team, but that is a soft benefit and cannot be calculated with a hard stat on its own, however WAR is weighted towards which defensive position the player occupies - so this flexibility will increase Fletch's dWAR when he plays shortstop for example. However, when that has been considered it is still the case that Fletcher offers more WAR on offence than defence and as I said earlier WAR is an assessment of total value. You are talking about value and I am using the go to stat for value which completely undermines your position that Fletcher's defence "provides most of his value".

Have a good day and maybe take a few moments to smell a flower, watch the sun go down, listen to the birds sing etc, enjoy life. 

[Jason]

Still rooting 

[Angel Oracle]

On 6/27/2021 at 1:23 PM, WicketMaiden said:

No.

He is an infielder playing the outfield for the first time, so I'll give him a pass on D.

He was called up on the 17th June, give him a chance @rageous, major league baseball is really bloody hard to do and it takes time to adjust to.

Sure he hasn't been setting the world alight, but I don't really care so much about what he does now as much as what he does next year and beyond. He is only 24, Fletch was 24 when he figured it out, Walsh was 26. This is a learning curve for him, let him learn and see where he is after a couple of months of regular playing time. 

 

Plus the rest of the season needs to focus on setting up for next season.

Too many teams to pass for even the second WC, and too significant of a deficit on top of it.

[totdprods]

Through age 24:

Erick Aybar: .262/.298/.348/.646 OPS+ of 70 with 24 doubles, 7 triples, 4 HR, 24 BB, 85 K in 211 G/626 PA
Luis Rengifo: .214/.297/.325/.623, OPS+of 66 with 20 doubles, 3 triples, 10 HR 56 BB, 131 K in 155 G/569 PA

The game was quite different fifteen years ago, and Aybar's higher BA and contact is reflective of that, otherwise they're similar players - in ways, Rengifo's power and ability to draw walks even tip the scale a bit. 

And not the best comp, since this is age 20-22, but it comes up from time to time and is a similar sample of plate appearances:
Jose Ramirez: .239/.298/.346/.644, OPS+ of 76 with 24 doubles, 6 triples, 8 HR, 47 BB, 76 K in 180 G/635 PA

Knowing that the Dodgers wanted him in a package for Joc, Stripling, and Andy Pages is enough for me to be convinced there's some legitimate talent there.

Edited June 29, 2021 by totdprods

[rageous]

He's now 1 for his last 20 to go along with his bad defense in the outfield.

And he's barely above .400 Ops for the year.

Send him back down and let him work on his game.