Joe Maddon's influence

[Inside Pitch]

If you SERIOUSLY want to go nuts, and still don't think the in game decision making is the biggest problem, I invite you to watch the games with Baseball Savant live game info up.

[WicketMaiden]

29 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

If you SERIOUSLY want to go nuts, and still don't think the in game decision making is the biggest problem, I invite you to watch the games with Baseball Savant live game info up.

Don't do it to yourselves guys, life's too short, be nice to yourselves. Savant level genius and the Angels aren't going to be a happy mix are they?

[Inside Pitch]

8 minutes ago, WicketMaiden said:

Don't do it to yourselves guys, life's too short, be nice to yourselves. Savant level genius and the Angels aren't going to be a happy mix are they?

Nope... Its awful. So much so I have stopped doing it. 

I wish it had been around in the Scioscia days, just to see how often he was right about things.  That decade+ of beating the projections likely would have been easier to explain.

[eligrba]

4 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Maddon is too Maddoning.

[eligrba]

32 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

If you SERIOUSLY want to go nuts, and still don't think the in game decision making is the biggest problem, I invite you to watch the games with Baseball Savant live game info up.

Isn't AW the same as baseball savant?  WTF is baseball savant?  With all due respect.

[WicketMaiden]

15 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Nope... Its awful. So much so I have stopped doing it. 

I wish it had been around in the Scioscia days, just to see how often he was right about things.  That decade+ of beating the projections likely would have been easier to explain.

Indeed. I love the stats of baseball, it's a big part of the sport and I don't know of any other sport that is quite so dissected, but often the extra information just makes me more mad with frustration. Knowledge is power, unless it's in the mind of a powerless fan.

[Inside Pitch]

Just now, eligrba said:

Isn't AW the same as baseball savant?  WTF is baseball savant?  With all due respect.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com

You can track the analytics live, everything from the spin/velocity per pitch to vertical/horizontal movement and exit velocity.  You can see a hitters batted ball profile as he's facing a pitcher, their tendencies vs pitch types, results when shifted on.  Just a lot of stuff that gives a fan a deeper look at what's happening.

[Inside Pitch]

As someone that watched Maddon a lot in TB, and who was probably the closest thing to a critic of his, I just want to go on record as saying what's been happening of late hasn't been par for the course for Maddon.  For much of his time in TB he was a legit MS clone who would on occasion do something weird and it made headlines, -- basically stuff like MS would do in ST.  I don't for a second believe that Maddon doesn't want to win, partially because I think he wants to come through for Arte, they seem to be tight and Arte has always been a fan of his.  So, I do wonder if maybe he's just trying to make things happen too much and as a result pushing buttons too often.  This team HAS had issues with bad luck, it's not like every decision Maddon made early on was a bad one..   But maybe it's just a case of the manager pressing..  Terry Collins used to do it.  Marcel Lacheman did it...   To be honest, it's what I always liked about MS, he never seemed to panic -- which was the very thing people here hated..

Hopefully the team catches a few breaks, a few of Maddon's calls go the right way and things snowball a little.

[eligrba]

3 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

As someone that watched Maddon a lot in TB, and who was probably the closest thing to a critic of his, I just want to go on record as saying what's been happening of late hasn't been par for the course for Maddon.  For much of his time in TB he was a legit MS clone who would on occasion do something weird and it made headlines, -- basically stuff like MS would do in ST.  I don't for a second believe that Maddon doesn't want to win, partially because I think he wants to come through for Arte, they seem to be tight and Arte has always been a fan of his.  So, I do wonder if maybe he's just trying to make things happen too much and as a result pushing buttons too often.  This team HAS had issues with bad luck, it's not like every decision Maddon made early on was a bad one..   But maybe it's just a case of the manager pressing..  Terry Collins used to do it.  Marcel Lacheman did it...   To be honest, it's what I always liked about MS, he never seemed to panic -- which was the very thing people here hated..

Hopefully the team catches a few breaks, a few of Maddon's calls go the right way and things snowball a little.

I don’t know enough to evaluate whether Maddon has had a positive or negative impact on the Angels. I do know that it’s not Maddon’s fault that the pitching doesn’t have any ability to spot pitches which leads to walks and meatballs.  I assume that the general approach to the hitting Angel pitching is to be patient and selective, either looking for location or a particular pitch. Most elite pitchers make one mistake during an inning, decent pitchers make one mistake during an at bat. Angel pitchers seem to make mistake after mistake after mistake trying to recover.

Knowing to know when it’s the right time to change pitchers is actually one of the aspects of baseball that make the game unique. A manager’s decision to change pitchers affects the game, a manager’s decision not to change pitchers also affects the game. Regardless, the manager is a component of the game just like umpires. And, just like umpires, if everything goes well, the manager and umpires remain in the background giving the illusion that players are being moved, like chessman at just the right time.

For me, it boils down to the shitty pitching. Consistent shitty pitching is unrecoverable and oppressive for any team. I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be for the hitters knowing that however many runs they score is probably not enough.

I don’t understand how people think getting a new manager will make a difference with the same shitty pitching.

[tdawg87]

6 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

If you SERIOUSLY want to go nuts, and still don't think the in game decision making is the biggest problem, I invite you to watch the games with Baseball Savant live game info up.

[Slegnaac]

The problem with the "Fire so and so" mantra is always who is going to replace that person.  

I didn't have an issue with Maddon until he said he didn't care about results.  I have to assume he really meant that.  Results absolutely matter.

[totdprods]

My biggest concern is Minasian, to be honest.

Picking a lifelong baseball clubby kid echoes Tony Reagins’ mailroom intern path to GM a bit too much for me to feel comfortable. Reeks a bit too much of a nepotistic sycophant bending for the whims of an owner and/or manager. Acquiring the guys those guys want rather than a baseball ops/scouting/data dept.

Been trying hard to give him some grace since he walked in to a rough situation and we’ve endured a lot of bad luck, but few (any?) of his moves are looking even  halfway decent at this point, and given how many he made, that’s extremely concerning. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by totdprods

[bloodbrother]

11 minutes ago, totdprods said:

My biggest concern is Minasian, to be honest.

Picking a lifelong baseball clubby kid echoes Tony Reagins’ mailroom intern path to GM a bit too much for me to feel comfortable. Reeks a bit too much of a nepotistic sycophant bending for the whims of an owner and/or manager. Acquiring the guys those guys want rather than a baseball ops/scouting/data dept.

Been trying hard to give him some grace since he walked in to a rough situation and we’ve endured a lot of bad luck, but few (any?) of his moves are looking even  halfway decent at this point, and given how many he made, that’s extremely concerning. 

Tony Watson might be the only guy he's added who is performing well so far this year on the whole. So yeah, pretty bad!

[Inside Pitch]

19 minutes ago, totdprods said:

My biggest concern is Minasian, to be honest.

Picking a lifelong baseball clubby kid echoes Tony Reagins’ mailroom intern path to GM a bit too much for me to feel comfortable. Reeks a bit too much of a nepotistic sycophant bending for the whims of an owner and/or manager. Acquiring the guys those guys want rather than a baseball ops/scouting/data dept.

Been trying hard to give him some grace since he walked in to a rough situation and we’ve endured a lot of bad luck, but few (any?) of his moves are looking even  halfway decent at this point, and given how many he made, that’s extremely concerning. 

Meh, given baseball was trying to return from Covid and all the other BS that was uncertain at the time, plus the reality that he was a new hire you have to give him another year to get a feel for what he's really capable of.  You can probably say the same thing about the draft this year, even though they will actually have most of the college/prep seasons to scout players instead of the usual month of games.

Say what you will, I like that he didn't come in Dipoto or Kevin Malone, declare himself the new sheriff in town and go about fire a bunch of people without first evaluating them.  

Minasian hasn't had any time to really put his footprint on the team, we still don't have any clue what a Minasian front office will be like, all that gibberish people were repeating about "Well, in Toronto this, and Atlanta that, and under Alex Anthopoulos they did this, and he's three times removed through marriage to Andrew Friedman" blah blah blah...  We will know what Perry is good and bad at soon enough, but we aren't there yet.  

[ScottT]

Lol

[ScottT]

Maddon isn't different. He is, but he's still a manager. He can't take over for Iglesias on a defensive play, Fletcher on an at bat, or Mayers on a key pitch.  He can't make soft contact into an out... or a hit.  He cannot see the future either.

[Billy_Ball]

12 hours ago, Jay said:

The "Fire Scioscia" people were also the ones claiming that Maddon is a genius. That's a tough sell these days.

 

Ah yes, the "Maddon was the real brains behind 2002" people.

[ThisismineScios]

57 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Meh, given baseball was trying to return from Covid and all the other BS that was uncertain at the time, plus the reality that he was a new hire you have to give him another year to get a feel for what he's really capable of.  You can probably say the same thing about the draft this year, even though they will actually have most of the college/prep seasons to scout players instead of the usual month of games.

Say what you will, I like that he didn't come in Dipoto or Kevin Malone, declare himself the new sheriff in town and go about fire a bunch of people without first evaluating them.  

Minasian hasn't had any time to really put his footprint on the team, we still don't have any clue what a Minasian front office will be like, all that gibberish people were repeating about "Well, in Toronto this, and Atlanta that, and under Alex Anthopoulos they did this, and he's three times removed through marriage to Andrew Friedman" blah blah blah...  We will know what Perry is good and bad at soon enough, but we aren't there yet.  

Don't disagree there, but I think the thing that's concerning is the evaluation of talent and the near obstinance to go the way he wanted instead of what seemed obvious at the time--go get as much pitching as possible. The Cobb and Quintana moves both reeked of "We're smarter than you", as did the Dexter Fowler move. He preached run prevention all offseason long, but bad pitching is bad pitching. And the Angels pitching is the worst in the major leagues. And it's not like Iglesias has had a bad week or two; he darn near leads the league in errors. The catching has been the worst in the league. It's not just bad luck, it's bad evaluation, coaching, and implementation. That's on him. 

[ScottT]

11 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Nope... Its awful. So much so I have stopped doing it. 

I wish it had been around in the Scioscia days, just to see how often he was right about things.  That decade+ of beating the projections likely would have been easier to explain.

The Angels made the playoffs about as much as any team should during his tenure.  Consider the payroll... maybe a little less.  Subtract a big hit or two in 2002 and he's just a manager.  

He was just a manager... but a lot more would think of him as just a manager.

[ThisismineScios]

I think another major problem is Joe thinks he can do things the way he has always done them. Look at this absolute crazy quote. 

"It has been the symbol of the Angels manager’s attempt to shake the team out of its rut by having a more relaxed pregame routine.

Instead of doing extensive work on the field before the game, Maddon wanted his players to relax and focus more on playing and less on preparing, just like teenagers playing American League ball in the summer.

It hasn’t worked."

He still thinks he can groove his way to these guys' heads. It hasn't work in a month. This team has been playing poorly for weeks. They don't need less work they need motivation and accountability. And leadership--honest question, which player on this team is taking on a leadership role? 

[ScottT]

Who is that quote from, Bagdad Bob?  

It hasn't worked?

No shit, Sherlock

[ScottT]

People still think a manager can magically can say something to 30 men that makes them feel better and perform better?

Cute

[ScottT]

I mean forget the other 29 managers and teams.  It's not like there's great competition happening 

[Inside Pitch]

4 minutes ago, ScottT said:

The Angels made the playoffs about as much as any team should during his tenure.  Consider the payroll... maybe a little less.  Subtract a big hit or two in 2002 and he's just a manager.  

He was just a manager... but a lot more would think of him as just a manager.

Guess they are all just managers because you can apply your reasoning to pretty much every manager and come to the same conclusion.

For years MS led teams consistently outplayed their expected records, teams that tend to do that do that typically have one of the better "just managers".  It was funny to see sites like BBP try to figure out why the Angels did what they did.  Years later analytics became all the rage and teams suddenly started talking up the importance of run prevention/defense, and shortening games.  That was MS baseball at it's most basic... 

MS wanted more pitching the year the Angels signed AP...  He was mocked by many people here for not having been in the loop when the Angels signed him.   JD was praised for not involving him in the decision making, much like he was prevented from having access/input to how things were being done in the minors.

Worked out really well.

[ScottT]

22 minutes ago, Billy_Ball said:

Ah yes, the "Maddon was the real brains behind 2002" people.

People think the earth is flat