Heyman: Angels have checked in on every available starting pitcher

[angelsnationtalk]

40 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Also, while it ties up the payroll for 2019, 2020, and 2021, it’s gives the Angels another chance to do a big money reset following 2021 and address needs in FA at that time. Gerrit Cole would be great but it’s another long-term high dollar commitment while we still have Upton, Trout, Pujols under contract, not to mention the sizable 2020 salaries of Simmons, Cozart, and potentially Calhoun. Cole fits every need but there’s still a real chance he’s one or two years too early for our timeline. Greinke on basically a 2/$50-60 is another big contract on top of those isn’t nearly as bad when it comes off shortly after. 

A Greinke deal essentially “locks” the current team/core into place for the next two years - which might be a good thing, as it sets them up to rely on guys like Canning, Barria, Suarez, Thaiss, Ward, Adell, Rengifo, La Stella - and then re-assess following 2021 in order to determine which gaps they have in FA, which is still early enough in the Trout/Adell/Ohtani-era to justify. 

If Greinke totally falls off a cliff next year or the prospects aren’t working and the 2020 team is same news, the Angels can pivot in July and offload La Stella, Simmons, Ray, Calhoun (if they keep him), and be major sellers too, also resetting ahead of the 2021 season.

Next winter, Bauer, Stroman, Tanaka, Walker, Paxton, Minor, DeSclafini, Erlin are some potential FA targets. Who knows, it might be better to sit out on Cole this winter, and plan on nabbing Bauer next winter for the same price, and going year-to-year with him if he’s serious. Angels pay more annually, but no long-term risk, and he *could* be as impact as Cole. Realmuto and Zunino also hit FA that year.

We’d live and die by the youth the next two seasons - which is a good thing because we won’t have to deal much to get these two arms if we take the salary, and it’ll determine who’s legitimate. Pujols and Greinke come off after 2021, we address need in FA then, and the current A/A+ pitching crop and rookie level bats should be ascending into the upper minors by that time. Makes too much sense.

If you can get Greinke/Ray in a deal so we take on salary (cuz we have the money) and don’t have to give away high end prospects then DO IT. Or if we just got Greinke and and then Ryu after the season what do you think he’d cost? 

[angelsnationtalk]

21 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

I agree with this completely 

@Stradling I do too except the Adell part. Keep him off limits, we aren’t going to a Dipoto side with trading here...

[Chuck]

35 minutes ago, axalar said:

Greinke + Ray > Cole. Perhaps not in performance, but based on ability to address the need sooner, and expected outcomes. If we make no impact acquisition now, and lose out on Cole, which is a good possibility, then what? More Cahill’s and Harvey’s? 

I’m more curious if Arte would sign off on bringing Greinke back again.

Yep! 

I hope Arte's not that stubborn to take on Greinke's contract in a trade because of him departing for FA a long time ago. 

[angelsnationtalk]

Alright so let’s assume Greinke and Ray is who we acquire. Give me ideas of what our package might look like. 

[tdawg87]

Just now, angelsnationtalk said:

Give me ideas of what our package might look like. 

So have you ever seen a hairless rat? Imagine two of those, but morbidly obese, cuddled up together under an acorn and a small tuft of grass.

[Rollinghard]

Dillion Tate Just called up by Baltimore. He was 4th overall pick a few years ago. Has not lived up to his expectations but he can throw it with movement. I would take a shot at getting him. 

Maybe because I use to coach him when he played LL in Claremont CA. 

[ispy45]

All this Greinke talk is funny. You guys assume he will wave his no Trade clause against us.

[tdawg87]

3 minutes ago, ispy45 said:

All this Greinke talk is funny. You guys assume he will wave his no Trade clause against us.

I think he would tbh

[failos]

14 minutes ago, ispy45 said:

All this Greinke talk is funny. You guys assume he will wave his no Trade clause against us.

What makes you think he wouldn’t? He never left the Angels on bad terms.

[eligrba]

16 minutes ago, ispy45 said:

All this Greinke talk is funny. You guys assume he will wave his no Trade clause against us.

Many times players list teams they want to play for on their "No Trade List" as a way to earn more money when they "waive" their list.

[totdprods]

3 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

I can’t overstate how much I hate the idea that the Angels time line is 2 or 3 years from now.  The timeline is now.  It’s open now.  3 years is Trout in his 30’s.  The Angels cannot keep doing this when they have the best player on the planet at the height of his powers. 

I think you could say the timeline is now...and 2-3 years from now. That’s what’s all of Eppler’s work has been focused towards. Sustainability.

The Angels have a core right now that’s leaning on vets who are coming off the books the next 2-3 years - Calhoun, Cozart, Simmons, Pujols - as well as a crop of AAA players who should produce some help to push the current Ohtani/Trout prime. Some are long term pieces - Canning, Adell, Suarez, Fletcher, Rengifo - and some that can go either way - helpful or marginal, like Ward, Thaiss, Barria, Hermosillo, Anderson. 

2-3 years from now, a lot of the old guard will be gone. Some prospects will have stuck. Some will have faltered. By then, we’ll be seeing the next wave here to support.

That’s why I see Greinke making some sense. It does lock things up for the next 2-3 years. Not much payroll to help with other needs. But it pushes our youth to succeed and gives them a shot at winning now - without costing us major future help in prospect capital. 

A lot of money can shed the next four offseasons too. Simmons and Cozart. Pujols and Greinke. Upton. Plenty of room to re-assess after each year - but it does tie us up this coming winter. We skip the Cole sweepstakes - and then next winter can look at Bauer. By then, Cozart, definitely Calhoun, possibly Ray, and Simmons even could be off - with only Greinke and Pujols tabbed for one more year. 

Never know - could be Greinke, Bauer, Ohtani, Heaney, Canning then for 2021. Maybe even Ray still if they go with Rengifo at SS.

Edited July 27, 2019 by totdprods

[Vlad27Trout27]

I'd do a Greinke + Ray Deal with the D'backs. Depending on the amount of money the D'backs are willing to eat, can determine the value of the trade. Here's a sample;

Angels- Greinke and Ray + 20-30 mil

Dbacks: Suarez/Barria, Thaiss, Jones/Ward/Rojas, and Pena( maybe Yan) depending on D'backs wiliness to eat the money. 

Why this trade helps us:

We get pitching!

A top of the rotation arm in Greinke and than a 3  in Ray. Lets say the Dback's agreed to eat about 25 mil of the 70 mil contract of greinke. This gives us  money to spend in 2020, while we are on the hook for 22.5 mil. We can always trade Ray in the offseason, free his Salary, get a prospect or 2 back, than sign Cole. greinke will be off the payroll in 2 years, allowing us to sign Cole. 

 

Why Dback's Make this Trade.  

They can get rid of Greinke's Contract, while getting a decent return. Depending on the amount of money they are willing to eat, they get either Barria or Suarez, both guys are mlb be ready staters with Suarez having the higher ceiling. Both potential 3s. In Thaiss, they get a guy that can play multiple position and a bat that they can plug into the line-up. Next 2 are the wildcards in Jone/Ward/ Rojas, or someone in the lower level that have a good ceiling. Lastly they get a guy in either Pena or Yan, who are still young, but have high upsides.  

Now the question begs to ask, will the Dback include ray in a Greinke trade?

 

Potential 2020 Rotation:

Greinke, Ohtani, Ray, Canning and Heaney

Or we trade Ray and sign Cole

Cole, Greinke, Ohatni (can switch them), Canning, and Heaney...Hopefully guys like Soriano, C-rod and other's can develop!

[UndertheHalo]

To me Bauer is a solid tier below Cole. And the guy has openly talked about not wanting to sign long term commitments.  I’m not sure why you wait round for him.  The Angels have to be more proactive imo then what you’re talking about.  I get what you’re saying but I disagree that basically sitting back and letting league evolve around them is the way to go.  They’ve been doing that.  It’s time to be aggressive and force the issue.  Be bold and go after a guy like Cole.  Make a big trade.  What are we waiting for ?  I mean you’re talking about waiting for Simba to fall off the books ? Shouldn’t they desperately be trying to get Trout and Simmons into the DS together ? The idea that they shouldn’t is absolutely ridiculous to me.  The Angels have a good line up.  They have a solid bullpen. Spend some fu*cking capital and get some pitchers.  To not do so is incredibly shitty.  And honestly sort of a betrayal.  The Angels will never ever live down not making the playoffs while Trout was the best player in the league for a fu* king decade. It’s not fine.  We need incredible urgency now. 

Get Greinke or Ray or whatever.  But do something. 

Edited July 28, 2019 by UndertheHalo

[totdprods]

23 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

To me Bauer is a solid tier below Cole. And the guy has openly talked about not wanting to sign long term commitments. 

Is that necessarily a bad thing? If he’s happy here and the Angels are throwing him $20-30m each year, there’s no long-term risk. Yeah, he could go elsewhere any year or his price tag can keep getting out of control, but if the Angels keep building up the farm and developing arms, or if Ohtani and Canning develop into legit #1-2 options, the need is lessened.

No risk of a huge 6/$180m deal for Cole breaking down at some point and becoming the next albatross.

The Angels snag Greinke and Ray now. They can’t afford Cole, but they still have a rotation of Greinke, Ohtani, Ray, Heaney, Canning, and Pena/Barria/Suarez/Sandoval in 2020. That’s a damn good rotation. At the end of the year, they can try to re-sign Ray, or let the youth step in if they’re producing and save money, or they can drop 1/$25m on Bauer. Again, there are pros and cons to going year to year. They don’t have to let Simmons go, but they also have the ability to just roll with Rengifo and save $15m for more pitching if Greinke is aging rapidly or the young guys aren’t sticking.

2021: Bauer, Greinke, Ohtani, Heaney, Canning 

After 2021, maybe Bauer opts to go elsewhere or has crazy demands. Maybe he’s happy and just re-ups same deal. Greinke comes off the books, Pujols comes off the books...the Angels have plenty of money to pursue Bauer again, or let him go and sign other pitchers. Or maybe the youth has coalesced and they go with young guns in the rotation and sign whatever offense they need.

Bauer’s year to year can be just as good for a team as bad - if they aren’t pinning all of their hopes and dreams of him being their go-to arm year after year. Pinning all hopes on Cole could be riskier.

Edited July 28, 2019 by totdprods

[UndertheHalo]

9 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Is that necessarily a bad thing? If he’s happy here and the Angels are throwing him $20-30m each year, there’s no long-term risk. Yeah, he could go elsewhere any year or his price tag can keep getting out of control, but if the Angels keep building up the farm and developing arms, or if Ohtani and Canning develop into legit #1-2 options, the need is lessened.

No risk of a huge 6/$180m deal for Cole breaking down at some point and becoming the next albatross.

The Angels snag Greinke and Ray now. They can’t afford Cole, but they still have a rotation of Greinke, Ohtani, Ray, Heaney, Canning, and Pena/Barria/Suarez/Sandoval in 2020. That’s a damn good rotation. At the end of the year, they can try to re-sign Ray, or let the youth step in if they’re producing and save money, or they can drop 1/$25m on Bauer. Again, there are pros and cons to going year to year. They don’t have to let Simmons go, but they also have the ability to just roll with Rengifo and save $15m for more pitching if Greinke is aging rapidly or the young guys aren’t sticking.

2021: Bauer, Greinke, Ohtani, Heaney, Canning 

After 2021, maybe Bauer opts to go elsewhere or has crazy demands. Maybe he’s happy and just re-ups same deal. Greinke comes off the books, Pujols comes off the books...the Angels have plenty of money to pursue Bauer again, or let him go and sign other pitchers. Or maybe the youth has coalesced and they go with young guns in the rotation and sign whatever offense they need.

Bauer’s year to year can be just as good for a team as bad - if they aren’t pinning all of their hopes and dreams of him being their go-to arm year after year. Pinning all hopes on Cole could be riskier.

K, I sort of misunderstood that you’re basic proposal is getting Greinke and Ray.  I think that’s fine.  But to me not the first option.  Sorry that I misunderstood.

I understand what you’re saying.  And I fully appreciate that they could go after Cole and not land him.  But I think he should be option A and I think they they really do have a great shot at getting him.  Cough up the money and do it. Anyway, IMO Greinke carries more risk then I think you’re allowing.  So, they put a ton of money into him and he starts showing his age ? Then what ? Now we’re out on Cole and they’ve eaten up more the payroll flexibility for the next 2 years.  Now we truly are stuck waiting for deals to come off the books.  Alternatively.  It may work out.  What do I know I guess.  I admit that I am sort of fixating on Cole. 

[totdprods]

@UndertheHalo and all that’s is totally fair. I’d love to have Cole and still think he should rightfully be the target, but the Angels will also have more of an idea on his cost and interest than we do, even now. The Astros have pretty much as much incentive to keep him and the money - he might be perfectly fine staying there rather than jumping to a rival. Why leave a good thing, in his mind. 

Even if Ray wasn’t included, I wouldn’t take Greinke without demanding another quality piece back, unless Arizona ate an insane amount of money or basically gave him away. Taijuan Walker, Jon Duplantier, etc. could also be in play.

Greinke is certainly risky for his age, but Cole would be almost as risky for the length of the deal. More often than not those giant SP FA contracts backfire. Scherzer is about the only one I can recall that’s worked and even he’s dealing with a few lingering injuries now - not that it’s slowed him at all yet.

The Angels get backed into a 1-2 year corner if they take Greinke and Ray, but it certainly doesn’t hurt their chances of contention - as it stands right now. If Greinke sucks and Ray walks, we’ll be relying on the youth to make up the difference until Pujols and Greinke come off a year later - but they will have had more experience, less reliance, and we could be needing this stress test to the current wave anyways to determine how viable they’ll be 2021+

[angelsnationtalk]

4 minutes ago, totdprods said:

@UndertheHalo and all that’s is totally fair. I’d love to have Cole and still think he should rightfully be the target, but the Angels will also have more of an idea on his cost and interest than we do, even now. The Astros have pretty much as much incentive to keep him and the money - he might be perfectly fine staying there rather than jumping to a rival. Why leave a good thing, in his mind. 

Even if Ray wasn’t included, I wouldn’t take Greinke without demanding another quality piece back, unless Arizona ate an insane amount of money or basically gave him away. Taijuan Walker, Jon Duplantier, etc. could also be in play.

Greinke is certainly risky for his age, but Cole would be almost as risky for the length of the deal. More often than not those giant SP FA contracts backfire. Scherzer is about the only one I can recall that’s worked and even he’s dealing with a few lingering injuries now - not that it’s slowed him at all yet.

The Angels get backed into a 1-2 year corner if they take Greinke and Ray, but it certainly doesn’t hurt their chances of contention - as it stands right now. If Greinke sucks and Ray walks, we’ll be relying on the youth to make up the difference until Pujols and Greinke come off a year later - but they will have had more experience, less reliance, and we could be needing this stress test to the current wave anyways to determine how viable they’ll be 2021+

Yeah I agree to push for Greinke and Ray. If Arizona eats a ton to where we’re paying $10-$15 per year then I’d take just Greinke. That would enable us to still push for Cole. But yes, they’d gotta throw another SP in the deal to make it worth it. Plus we have a good trade relationship with Arizona.

I know Miami is reluctant to trade SPs but I think they might eventually do it. At some point they’ll need some good position players in the system. Ward, Hermosillo, Jones, Walsh, could all be helpers for them.

[UndertheHalo]

Alcantara is interesting to me

[totdprods]

7 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Alcantara is interesting to me

Sandy?

He could be a sell-high option for the Fish. Peripherals aren’t fantastic, but I’d certainly be interested if it didn’t take an elite haul. We match up so well with Miami.