What if we re-imagined some of the roles in our pitching staff?

[Second Base]

We've been over it a few times, that starting pitching is basically the biggest issue acing the Angels.  So this won't be another thread trying to convince you of something that many of you already know.  But I wonder, would the staff find more success if we shifted it around....

1. Matt Harvey, Felix Pena and Griffin Canning are all set with a four inning limit - It seems like all three of these pitchers, to some extent have actually been pretty solid, outside of their final inning.  So what if we started with an opener, and simply eliminated the final inning?

2. Promoting/Developing more long relievers.  Let the current one-inning relievers stay right where they're at, because they're doing a good job.  Robles, Buttrey, Anderson, Garcia, Allen...keep them at one inning.  But guys like Joe Gatto, Jose Suarez and Jaime Barria could certainly be brought up for 2-3 inning stints and be rotated back and forth from AAA. 

3. Shifting Cahill into a bullpen role.  He's succeeded in that role before, and clearly, the starting gig isn't suiting him this year.  So stop fighting against the stream and go with the flow.  Adjust.  If they keep Cahill in the rotation, he'll likely have no value at the trade deadline whatsoever.  If they move him back to relief where he was great before, the chances of him succeeding and being flipped at the deadline for something of value increase.  Start him off at one inning, then see if he can go 2-3. 

4. Use specific players in cleanup roles and keep them there unless otherwise forced to.  There's no reason whatsoever why Cam Bedrosian or Noe Ramirez should be handed the ball with the game on the line.  Not with the staff the Angels currently have.  I'm not advocating for defined roles as much as I'm advocating that you don't use less-good relievers in important situations.  Bard can be used in a variety of situations, either in multi-inning, single inning or cleanup.

5. Enhance the depth of the bullpen by bringin in two-way players such as Jared Walsh or Kaleb Cowart so that they can serve a role with the offense/bench and handle more of the cleanup duties, so as to not put any undue pressure on the rest of the pen. 

I feel like if the Angels were to do these five things, it would help protect the staff.  It's no secret that the Angels bullpen is being used more now than anyone would've liked, and in order to prevent that unit from wearing down, you need to get creative with some options.  Bringing in Bedorsian or Ramirez in, in a tie game late is not creative, it's just stupid or desperate.  I'm thinking just, shift some of the roles around to put less stress on some pitchers, and more on others than can be given rest in Salt Lake, or can fulfill other needs the team has.  And also, develop as much value int he current one year assets as we can because let's face it, the Angels probably aren't catching the Astros and their window of contention opens in 2020. 

[Angel Oracle]

I like it.    I'm still very leery about Garcia though (2/1 BBs/Ks ratio, not sustainable success at that rate).    Eventually, they will need to replace him as that success likely goes away.

[T.G.]

I'd rather re-engineer the pitching staff... Make that - re-place. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by True Grich

[totdprods]

I like it too, and think we're sort of seeing a lot of this already. It may not go all the way simply because some players are not comfortable with it (and that's just speculation) and the club agrees that the data isn't strong enough to force the issue, say with someone like Harvey having an opener or Cahill going to the pen, but I think we're evolving towards this already.

[Jeff Fletcher]

Within the next 5-6 weeks, Heaney, JC Ramírez and Middleton are all coming back. 

That’s a rotation of Skaggs, Heaney, Harvey, Cahill and Canning. I still think it’s too early to give up on Harvey and Cahill. I don’t think they’re going to become aces, but both should be serviceable starters, and if you have a deep bullpen with some multi inning relievers, you can get them out quickly when they don’t have it. (Look at the Brewers.)

Barría, Tropeano and Suarez stay stretched out as AAA starters and can fill in in case of injury. 

JC Ramírez, Peña, Taylor Cole and Bard all cycle up and down (except JC, who is out of options) as multi-inning relief, with-a-lead options (not mop up, more like 2017 Petit). Starter has given up 2 and looks shaky in the 5th, with a 4-2 lead? Bring in one of those guys for 6-7 outs to bridge to the late-inning guys. 

Buttrey, Robles, Allen (give him a chance now that he’s healthy), Middleton.

Garcia, Bedrosian and Noé Ramírez are all tweeners. Some from that group may need to go to make room for Middleton and JC

Your 12 pitchers are 

Skaggs, Heaney, Cahill, Harvey, Canning

Robles, Buttrey, Allen, Middleton, JC Ramírez 

1 of García/Bedrosian (other DFA)

1 of Peña/Cole/Bard (others optioned)

If they have 13, Noé Ramírez too

[Second Base]

21 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Within the next 5-6 weeks, Heaney, JC Ramírez and Middleton are all coming back. 

That’s a rotation of Skaggs, Heaney, Harvey, Cahill and Canning. I still think it’s too early to give up on Harvey and Cahill. I don’t think they’re going to become aces, but both should be serviceable starters, and if you have a deep bullpen with some multi inning relievers, you can get them out quickly when they don’t have it. (Look at the Brewers.)

Barría, Tropeano and Suarez stay stretched out as AAA starters and can fill in in case of injury. 

JC Ramírez, Peña, Taylor Cole and Bard all cycle up and down (except JC, who is out of options) as multi-inning relief, with-a-lead options (not mop up, more like 2017 Petit). Starter has given up 2 and looks shaky in the 5th, with a 4-2 lead? Bring in one of those guys for 6-7 outs to bridge to the late-inning guys. 

Buttrey, Robles, Allen (give him a chance now that he’s healthy), Middleton.

Garcia, Bedrosian and Noé Ramírez are all tweeners. Some from that group may need to go to make room for Middleton and JC

Your 12 pitchers are 

Skaggs, Heaney, Cahill, Harvey, Canning

Robles, Buttrey, Allen, Middleton, JC Ramírez 

1 of García/Bedrosian (other DFA)

1 of Peña/Cole/Bard (others optioned)

If they have 13, Noé Ramírez too

I definitely picture the issue being forced once Middleton and Ramirez return. 

[zenmaster]

Let's just get rid of the ones that suck.

[kevinb]

I am curious what starts to happen with starting pitchers salaries? Will Starting pitchers fight back against this analytical stuff? Will pitchers even really be valuable other than a handful? There is definitely a fight coming players versus ownership. 

[Inside Pitch]

8 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

I am curious what starts to happen with starting pitchers salaries? Will Starting pitchers fight back against this analytical stuff? Will pitchers even really be valuable other than a handful? There is definitely a fight coming players versus ownership. 

I'm not asking to be a dick, I'm asking because Im genuinely curious how they go about actually fighting back?   

Keuchel's refusal to sign for less than his asking price might be considered an attempt to fight back -- it's not really getting him anywhere.   I do agree that players will ultimately fight to change the system but, my guess is their best way to fight is to try to make it so players make more money early in their careers -- maybe an increase in the minimum wage, sooner arbitration -- etc etc.

Gonna be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Within the next 5-6 weeks, Heaney, JC Ramírez and Middleton are all coming back. 

That’s a rotation of Skaggs, Heaney, Harvey, Cahill and Canning. I still think it’s too early to give up on Harvey and Cahill. I don’t think they’re going to become aces, but both should be serviceable starters, and if you have a deep bullpen with some multi inning relievers, you can get them out quickly when they don’t have it. (Look at the Brewers.)

Barría, Tropeano and Suarez stay stretched out as AAA starters and can fill in in case of injury. 

JC Ramírez, Peña, Taylor Cole and Bard all cycle up and down (except JC, who is out of options) as multi-inning relief, with-a-lead options (not mop up, more like 2017 Petit). Starter has given up 2 and looks shaky in the 5th, with a 4-2 lead? Bring in one of those guys for 6-7 outs to bridge to the late-inning guys. 

Buttrey, Robles, Allen (give him a chance now that he’s healthy), Middleton.

Garcia, Bedrosian and Noé Ramírez are all tweeners. Some from that group may need to go to make room for Middleton and JC

Your 12 pitchers are 

Skaggs, Heaney, Cahill, Harvey, Canning

Robles, Buttrey, Allen, Middleton, JC Ramírez 

1 of García/Bedrosian (other DFA)

1 of Peña/Cole/Bard (others optioned)

If they have 13, Noé Ramírez too

Also I forgot Justin Anderson. 

They definitely have plenty of pieces.

[Claude]

35 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

I'm not asking to be a dick, I'm asking because Im genuinely curious how they go about actually fighting back?   

Keuchel's refusal to sign for less than his asking price might be considered an attempt to fight back -- it's not really getting him anywhere.   I do agree that players will ultimately fight to change the system but, my guess is their best way to fight is to try to make it so players make more money early in their careers -- maybe an increase in the minimum wage, sooner arbitration -- etc etc.

Gonna be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

88 mph fastballs won’t get him the money he’s asking for. 

[Docwaukee]

Right now I have Skaggs, Harvey, Canning as the only three guys going every 5th day for sure.  Add Heaney to that when he comes back.  

Cahill, Pena, Barria, and Peters go into the mix and match category for throwing anywhere from 3-5 innings.  All but Cahill has options.  They likely wouldn't put Cahill in that group until Heaney comes back.  Throw Trop in there when he's ready as well and also has options. 

Buttrey is your high leverage or 8th
Robles your closer
Anderson and Bard are the next two on the list for important situations 
Then it's Allen, Noe, Cam and Garcia.  Garcia is smoke and mirrors and a melt down waiting to happen.  
Can work Cole and possibly Ramsey and Jewell there as needed because of their options  

It's showing on roster resource that JC Ramirez has an option left which would be great.   I'd keep him ready to move into the Cahill group where he could go 3-4 innings if possible.  

Middleton works in a similar role to Buttrey.  

the probable healthy 13 would be 

Skaggs, Harvey, Canning, Heaney 
Cahill, Pena, Ramirez
Buttrey, Middleton, Robles, Anderson, Bard, Allen

that won't happen because I don't see them losing or potentially losing Cam, Noe, and Garcia due to being out of options.  But it's going to get interesting as I also don't see the team optioning Pena, Anderson and Bard just to keep those guys on the roster.  

I also don't mind the three guy bench because of the flexibility of La Stella, Cozart and Fletcher.  
 

[BackUpTheTruck]

I think Harvey is more likely to stick around than Cahill. He pitched well recently vs. NYY and KC.

Cahill would be terrible in the bullpen considering he has already given up 12 home runs. Maybe he can be an opener.

[UndertheHalo]

This is a good post with some interesting ideas Scotty.  I think that we ultimately want to see a guy like Canning stretch out and be a traditional starter. But depending on the circumstances I think all of your points have some merit.  

[kevinb]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

I'm not asking to be a dick, I'm asking because Im genuinely curious how they go about actually fighting back?   

Keuchel's refusal to sign for less than his asking price might be considered an attempt to fight back -- it's not really getting him anywhere.   I do agree that players will ultimately fight to change the system but, my guess is their best way to fight is to try to make it so players make more money early in their careers -- maybe an increase in the minimum wage, sooner arbitration -- etc etc.

Gonna be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

I know you’re not trying to be a dick. But I honestly don’t have the answer. Starting pitchers have made upwards of 20 million or more dollars a year. Bullpen guys less so. If I’m a team why am I going to do that anymore? Just buy a lot of cheap bullpen arms that can go 2-4 innings. I don’t have the numbers or even where to look for it. But what would you think the average starting pitching innings pitched is? By watching the Angels it can’t be more than 4 innings on avg. Why would a team pay a “starting pitcher” 20 plus million a year for 120 or so innings? I just think the players are going to fight against this kind of stuff. I see a strike on the horizon. Just my two cents. 

[mmc]

how about instead of trying to make our mediocre/bad pitchers seem somewhat good we just get actual good pitchers instead

[Angel Oracle]

13 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

how about instead of trying to make our mediocre/bad pitchers seem somewhat good we just get actual good pitchers instead

Canning, eventually Suarez, and maybe Sandoval will be that first wave of starters from the farm.   Barria is somewhere in between currently.

[Inside Pitch]

37 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

I know you’re not trying to be a dick. But I honestly don’t have the answer. 

Yeah -- they seem effed unless they rework the CBA.   IMO, the owners had a better long term plan and outsmarted the union.

37 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Starting pitchers have made upwards of 20 million or more dollars a year. Bullpen guys less so. If I’m a team why am I going to do that anymore? Just buy a lot of cheap bullpen arms that can go 2-4 innings. I don’t have the numbers or even where to look for it. But what would you think the average starting pitching innings pitched is? By watching the Angels it can’t be more than 4 innings on avg. Why would a team pay a “starting pitcher” 20 plus million a year for 120 or so innings? I just think the players are going to fight against this kind of stuff. I see a strike on the horizon. Just my two cents. 

That's just it -- teams are all value based now.  The media and their need to make fun of teams who made mistakes has hurt the players a great deal more than people realize.  When social media is the rule of the day and they are all repeating the same BS the narratives become reality.   Nobody wants to be seen as the "stupid" team and billionaire owners don't want to come off as the foolish dude that is pissing money away.   

37 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

 But what would you think the average starting pitching innings pitched is? By watching the Angels it can’t be more than 4 innings on avg. Why would a team pay a “starting pitcher” 20 plus million a year for 120 or so innings? I just think the players are going to fight against this kind of stuff. I see a strike on the horizon. Just my two cents. 

Angels pitcher ineffectiveness is cutting down the length of their starts to a larger degree than some others I'm sure but .... Consider this...   Only 13 pitchers topped 200 innings last year -- There were 45 in 2010..    The overall change in usage is a lot bigger than just those sets of numbers -- check this out..

2000 http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/year/2000/sort/thirdInnings/count/41/qualified/false   There were 57 MLB pitchers who tossed at least 190.  A total of 66 threw at least 180.
2010 http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/year/2010/sort/thirdInnings/count/41  There were 63 pitchers at 190 or more innings.  A total of 73 threw at least 180 innings.
2018 http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/year/2018/sort/thirdInnings/qualified/false  Last year -- 23 at 190 or more innings. A total of 32 at 180+ or more innings.   

There were fewer SP throwing 160 Innings last year (62), than there were throwing 180 a decade ago...

Teams just aren't letting SPs go as long as they used to.   All the data says that third time through the lineup results in drop in performance so they just aren't being allowed to go longer... 

I get they may want to strike, but they can't really strike to be used more, because teams will simple say they aren't trying to limit their earnings, as much as they are trying to win and they will have the data to back that POV up.

 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Inside Pitch

[Second Base]

I'd really like to see an Angels bullpen that has guys in their appropriate roles.  If it were me, I'd try something that's pretty extreme in its differences.....

Rotation: Skaggs, Canning, Heaney, Suarez and Harvey

Bullpen: Pena, Ramirez, Gatto, Cahill, Allen, Buttrey, Anderson and Robles.

Pena, Ramirez, Gatto and Cahill would function as multi-inning relievers and clean-up crew.  Allen would be worked back into a high leverage role by making him work in low-leverage situations for a solid month.  Buttrey, Anderson and Robles are hard throws that can lock down the late innings.  I also would be open to allowing some of our multi-inning relievers finish off some games.  I don't think roles would be set in stone.  The Angels could use a single inning or multi-inning reliever at pretty much any moment in the game. 

[eaterfan]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

8

15 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Yeah -- they seem effed unless they rework the CBA.   IMO, the owners had a better long term plan and outsmarted the union.

That's just it -- teams are all value based now.  The media and their need to make fun of teams who made mistakes has hurt the players a great deal more than people realize.  When social media is the rule of the day and they are all repeating the same BS the narratives become reality.   Nobody wants to be seen as the "stupid" team and billionaire owners don't want to come off as the foolish dude that is pissing money away.   

Angels pitcher ineffectiveness is cutting down the length of their starts to a larger degree than some others I'm sure but .... Consider this...   Only 13 pitchers topped 200 innings last year -- There were 45 in 2010..    The overall change in usage is a lot bigger than just those sets of numbers -- check this out..

2000 http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/year/2000/sort/thirdInnings/count/41/qualified/false   There were 57 MLB pitchers who tossed at least 190.  A total of 66 threw at least 180.
2010 http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/year/2010/sort/thirdInnings/count/41  There were 63 pitchers at 190 or more innings.  A total of 73 threw at least 180 innings.
2018 http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/year/2018/sort/thirdInnings/qualified/false  Last year -- 23 at 190 or more innings. A total of 32 at 180+ or more innings.   

There were fewer SP throwing 160 Innings last year (62), than there were throwing 180 a decade ago...

Teams just aren't letting SPs go as long as they used to.   All the data says that third time through the lineup results in drop in performance so they just aren't being allowed to go longer... 

I get they may want to strike, but they can't really strike to be used more, because teams will simple say they aren't trying to limit their earnings, as much as they are trying to win and they will have the data to back that POV up.

 

I'm not sure it's that so much that the owners are smarter and have a better plan. They have structural advantages that give them a lot more leverage. The casinos aren't necessarily smarter or better gamblers than everyone but they sure make the money and everyone else who bets there loses it.

[Inside Pitch]

They were smarter in the sense that they were ahead of the game when it came to the analytics and those smart teams created a roadmap for others teams to follow.   I think the player's union believed teams would still be willing to throw big money around.  But as the guaranteed money from TV deals grew, and criticism of teams that spent and didn't win became more common I believe ownership shifted gears all across MLB....    Meanwhile the players were arguing about getting chefs to do the post game spread.

They definitely got caught flat-footed.

[eaterfan]

1 minute ago, Inside Pitch said:

They were smarter in the sense that they were ahead of the game when it came to the analytics and those smart teams created a roadmap for others teams to follow.   I think the player's union believed teams would still be willing to throw big money around.  But as the guaranteed money from TV deals grew, and criticism of teams that spent and didn't win became more common I believe ownership shifted gears all across MLB....    Meanwhile the players were arguing about getting chefs to do the post game spread.

They definitely got caught flat-footed.

Definitely true, but the union represents 750 players with diverse interests, limited windows to make money, and one source of income.  There are 30 owners who have much more broadly aligned interests, a realistically unlimited window to make money, and other sources from which to derive income. The union isn't going to win many meaningful battles. If the owners really want something they will get it.

[Inside Pitch]

11 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

Definitely true, but the union represents 750 players with diverse interests, limited windows to make money, and one source of income.  There are 30 owners who have much more broadly aligned interests, a realistically unlimited window to make money, and other sources from which to derive income. The union isn't going to win many meaningful battles. If the owners really want something they will get it.

You know, I agree with you in principle, but the history between ownership .vs players was pretty one-sided until now.   Marvin Miller completely owned Bowie Kuhn, just completely wiped the floor with him and ownership.  Miller was able to really exploit their lack of unity on pretty much anything.   So, in that respect, I think things have changed but again...  IMO they wised up where the MLBPA thought it would be business as usual.

There a few really good books that go into detail including Miller's A Whole New Ballgame.  The Lords of the Realm is another really great read on MLB ownership over the years -- it goes all the way back to the racist BS, but it's at it's best when it details how owners jumped at the chance to spend on FAs right up to the 94 strike.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Inside Pitch

[Jeff Fletcher]

5 hours ago, Dochalo said:

that JC Ramirez has an option left which would be great. 

He doesn’t 

[ten ocho recon scout]

10 hours ago, Calzone 2 said:

88 mph fastballs won’t get him the money he’s asking for.