Street/Bedrosian/Bailey to compete for closer

[tdawg87]

Bring back Salas

 

[Oz27]

4 hours ago, ukyah said:

cam is neither a seasoned veterano nor a rookie. he'll be treated as any other player going on his fourth year in the clubhouse.

I mean, sure. But he should be treated as the person who is our best reliever by a very very long way.

[ukyah]

Just now, Oz27 said:

I mean, sure. But he should be treated as the person who is our best reliever by a very very long way.

i wasn't responding to you. i was responding to the notion that he's some rookie who won't get a fair shake from scioscia.

[Oz27]

3 minutes ago, ukyah said:

i wasn't responding to you. i was responding to the notion that he's some rookie who won't get a fair shake from scioscia.

It's not unreasonable to suspect Bailey and Street will be given more of a chance due to their age. The fact this is even a discussion, when Bedrosian is so much better than the other two, indicates how strong Scioscia's veteran preference is.

[Glen]

4 hours ago, Oz27 said:

It's not unreasonable to suspect Bailey and Street will be given more of a chance due to their age. The fact this is even a discussion, when Bedrosian is so much better than the other two, indicates how strong Scioscia's veteran preference is.

Or, it could just be Scioscia trying to motivate his players heading into spring training.

You're probably closer to correct, but yeah.

[AngelsLakersFan]

I don't want Bedrosian as the closer anyway. Hopefully Street is good enough to get 3 outs before he gives up 2 or 3 runs the vast majority of the time...

[Oz27]

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I don't want Bedrosian as the closer anyway. Hopefully Street is good enough to get 3 outs before he gives up 2 or 3 runs the vast majority of the time...

In an ideal world I would love to see Bedrosian in a true fireman role. But if we're sticking with "traditional" bullpen roles, it's probably best to have the most talented pitcher in the role deemed most important.

Also, Street is pretty clearly done. The idea of him pitching in high leverage spots is terrifying.

[ukyah]

20 hours ago, Oz27 said:

It's not unreasonable to suspect Bailey and Street will be given more of a chance due to their age. The fact this is even a discussion, when Bedrosian is so much better than the other two, indicates how strong Scioscia's veteran preference is.

i'd disagree with that characterization completely. there's very little evidence, other than circumstantial, that even suggests that scioscia has a veteran bias. he actually has a pretty long career of letting very young players take on some very high leverage situations. every man should have to earn his job. also, it's not so black and white as that.  many of the new school guys are consistently arguing over the worth of the closer. the idea of using your best reliever in the highest leverage situation, rather than for the last 3 outs. being that you're one of those new school guys, why wouldn't you prefer to have bedrosian available for high leverage situations in the 7th or 8th? in those scenarios, the closer role becomes the mop up role, because most of the heavy lifting has already been accomplished.

i care considerably more about adding some more quality arms, than i do about who gets the closer job.

[ukyah]

8 minutes ago, Oz27 said:

In an ideal world I would love to see Bedrosian in a true fireman role. But if we're sticking with "traditional" bullpen roles, it's probably best to have the most talented pitcher in the role deemed most important.

Also, Street is pretty clearly done. The idea of him pitching in high leverage spots is terrifying.

i said this yesterday, but i'd be willing to throw some bones at that statement.

[tdawg87]

Let's just hope Street can hold it together for a few months so they can trade him.

 

[ukyah]

20 hours ago, Oz27 said:

I mean, sure. But he should be treated as the person who is our best reliever by a very very long way.

here's another question. is he really our best reliever by a very very long way?

why? because he had a breakout year? he had an excellent 40 innings last year. shouldn't the bar for excellence be more than 40 innings or even one season, for that matter?

what if he reverted back to his 14 and 15 numbers, when he was referred to as a bust in the making? would it be shocking? shoemaker has done it for longer than bedrosian and we argue about his worth and role in the rotation.

this all seems very shortsighted and tunnelvision, imo.

[tdawg87]

You're absolutely right that Bedrock is far from a "sure thing", but he's the most sure thing we have in that shitpen. It isn't just his raw statistics. It's his overall makeup. He has excellent stuff and that's always been known. Last year he seemingly figured out the mental part of the game and the results showed.

[Oz27]

1 hour ago, ukyah said:

here's another question. is he really our best reliever by a very very long way?

why? because he had a breakout year? he had an excellent 40 innings last year. shouldn't the bar for excellence be more than 40 innings or even one season, for that matter?

what if he reverted back to his 14 and 15 numbers, when he was referred to as a bust in the making? would it be shocking? shoemaker has done it for longer than bedrosian and we argue about his worth and role in the rotation.

this all seems very shortsighted and tunnelvision, imo.

Huh? You're kidding, right? Is Bedrosian an absolute sure thing to keep being really good? Probably not. Is there anyone in our bullpen who projects to be even as close to as good as him? Hell no. Who is our best reliever, besides Bedrosian? Street? Well he was as difficult to hit as a ball on a tee last year. Bailey? He's been terrible for years and improved to mediocrity in a brief stint with the Angels. Guerra? He has had one decent season and it wasn't anywhere near as good as Bedrosian's was. The gap between Bedrosian and the rest is f**king enormous. Bedrosian is entering his age 25 season, coming off a year in which his ERA and WHIP were barely over 1 and his K/9 was 11.4. That is pretty damn good. How is it even a discussion as to whether he is our best? I can't comprehend how you can seriously question that, it's just absurd. 

As for the veteran preference thing, there is pretty strong evidence which goes against what you say and little to support it. We just watched Jered Weaver have one of the worst starting pitching seasons ever and be allowed to see out the season. It's not all that long ago that Bobby Abreu was playing ahead of Mike Trout. It's hardly like those are isolated examples too.

[Stradling]

It's not a difficult stretch to understand his point Oz.  Before this year Bedrosian had a history of being pretty awful.  Before this year Street had a long successful track record.  This year Street was injured, so who's to say they both won't return to their norms?  

I am not at all saying this will happen, but we have seen it happen before, and often.  Jepsen had a great year followed by shit.  Morin had a great year and he has never been the same.   Sure Street very well could be done, or he could turn it around and have another very good year.  

[Oz27]

11 hours ago, Stradling said:

It's not a difficult stretch to understand his point Oz.  Before this year Bedrosian had a history of being pretty awful.  Before this year Street had a long successful track record.  This year Street was injured, so who's to say they both won't return to their norms?  

I am not at all saying this will happen, but we have seen it happen before, and often.  Jepsen had a great year followed by shit.  Morin had a great year and he has never been the same.   Sure Street very well could be done, or he could turn it around and have another very good year.  

It's not a difficult stretch to understand part of his point, but his point overall is a difficult stretch. Firstly, Bedrosian's dominance last year blows away anything Jepsen or Morin ever did. They're not even in the same ballpark. Bedrosian did it at 24, a natural breakout year, and his previous struggles came at an age when most of his peers are still in the minors. It's extremely unlikely that success was a flash in the pan. Maybe he will regress, but not by enough to not be our best reliever. That is because he can regress a really really long way and still be our best reliever, as he was the best by a freaking mile last year and the next best (probably Guerra and Ramirez) raise pretty serious sustainability questions due to the fact they never strike anyone out.

As for Street, his walks and strikeouts have been trending in the wrong direction for awhile. It's not like his collapse came out of nowhere either, he wasn't that good in 2015 and his second half of that season was really bad. His soft contact rate has been going down at a pretty rapid rate for years. He has been consistently losing fastball velocity for years and is now down to 88. He doesn't draw swinging strikes much at all anymore either. Last year wasn't an anomaly, it was the continuation of a trend and it's going to take something pretty out there - like him suddenly regaining velocity at 34 - to reverse it. Realistically, it would be very surprising for him to turn it around in a significant way.

[Troll Daddy]

There's a lot of voices and eyes that go into a decision. 

[Dtwncbad]

On 12/7/2016 at 3:57 PM, hangin n wangin said:

And I would disagree. Because it's not. He pitched abysmal last year and his stuff is not as good as Bedrosian. So why should it be his job to lose?

It "should" be Bedrosian at this point if you measure talent and getting Bedrosian into the role he belongs in.  But I think the reality is they will put Street in there in the hopes he returns to being a reliable closer so that he has trade value as such mid summer.

[Oz27]

25 minutes ago, hangin n wangin said:

 

I'm not quite sure Scisocia will choose the best pitcher. We will see.

 

I expect we'll hear "experience" and "closer mentality" a lot in spring training.

[Angel Oracle]

Probably the one pretty confident thing at this point, is the Halos likely not exercising Street's option for 2018.   The question likely becomes, will he be traded before September 1? 

[ukyah]

21 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

You're absolutely right that Bedrock is far from a "sure thing", but he's the most sure thing we have in that shitpen. It isn't just his raw statistics. It's his overall makeup. He has excellent stuff and that's always been known. Last year he seemingly figured out the mental part of the game and the results showed.

i don't disagree with that at all, i was just making a point about perception that applied more to how we define expectations.

[Jeff Fletcher]

One guy has a career worth of being pretty good, to the tune of 300-plus saves. He had an awful year, perhaps mostly, if not entirely, because he was hurt. 

The other guy had a great 4 months. 

Seems perfectly reasonable and fair to both to say, going into spring, it's a competition. That's how you get the most out of both. 

(I don't honestly think Bailey is in the same class as either. He's more of a all-has-gone-wrong safety net.)

[ukyah]

it's hard to address a conversation when the reply begins with, "are you joking?".

stradling surmised my point well, so, if it's possible to hear my message from another's voice, then that's where i would send you in this case.

don't devalue my point, which is different from my opinion btw, by adding the bottom of the bullpen to your list in an attempt to invalidate my argument.

what i said was, street was injured for the entirety of the year last season, why shouldn't his history of recent success be used for him? especially if we're going to excuse bedrosian's previous seasons?

i understand fully the concepts of advancement and decline. i understand that one player's star is rising, while the other's is falling.

i'm only asking questions so that alternate reasoning may be considered. you never answered my question about using cam in high leverage situations in the 7th/8th as a better utilization of his superior talents, since the closer role is overvalued anyway.

wouldn't that be considered "new school"? but scioscia would be characterized as favoring veterans for putting street in the closer role and leaving cam for those very situations. what if the angels, are actually thinking about those situations and are being coy with their phrasing so as not to upset the other players? aren't all of these things reasonably possible? or must the narrative be scioscia never gives young players their chance?

[ettin]

2 hours ago, ukyah said:

it's hard to address a conversation when the reply begins with, "are you joking?".

stradling surmised my point well, so, if it's possible to hear my message from another's voice, then that's where i would send you in this case.

don't devalue my point, which is different from my opinion btw, by adding the bottom of the bullpen to your list in an attempt to invalidate my argument.

what i said was, street was injured for the entirety of the year last season, why shouldn't his history of recent success be used for him? especially if we're going to excuse bedrosian's previous seasons?

i understand fully the concepts of advancement and decline. i understand that one player's star is rising, while the other's is falling.

i'm only asking questions so that alternate reasoning may be considered. you never answered my question about using cam in high leverage situations in the 7th/8th as a better utilization of his superior talents, since the closer role is overvalued anyway.

wouldn't that be considered "new school"? but scioscia would be characterized as favoring veterans for putting street in the closer role and leaving cam for those very situations. what if the angels, are actually thinking about those situations and are being coy with their phrasing so as not to upset the other players? aren't all of these things reasonably possible? or must the narrative be scioscia never gives young players their chance?

As AFL would say "Savage".

[Oz27]

On 12/9/2016 at 6:31 PM, ukyah said:

it's hard to address a conversation when the reply begins with, "are you joking?".

stradling surmised my point well, so, if it's possible to hear my message from another's voice, then that's where i would send you in this case.

don't devalue my point, which is different from my opinion btw, by adding the bottom of the bullpen to your list in an attempt to invalidate my argument.

what i said was, street was injured for the entirety of the year last season, why shouldn't his history of recent success be used for him? especially if we're going to excuse bedrosian's previous seasons?

i understand fully the concepts of advancement and decline. i understand that one player's star is rising, while the other's is falling.

i'm only asking questions so that alternate reasoning may be considered. you never answered my question about using cam in high leverage situations in the 7th/8th as a better utilization of his superior talents, since the closer role is overvalued anyway.

wouldn't that be considered "new school"? but scioscia would be characterized as favoring veterans for putting street in the closer role and leaving cam for those very situations. what if the angels, are actually thinking about those situations and are being coy with their phrasing so as not to upset the other players? aren't all of these things reasonably possible? or must the narrative be scioscia never gives young players their chance?

Look, I didn't mean to come across as disrespectful. You're giving way too much leeway to Street though and nowhere near enough credit to Bedrosian. Last year didn't come out of nowhere for Street, it was the acceleration of a trend that had been coming for awhile. Like I said, his 2015 wasn't good and his finish to it was especially bad. He then followed that up with a horrendous 2016 and there isn't anything I've found which backs up the "he was injured all year" sentiment. As for why you excuse Bedrosian's previous seasons, you obviously factor those into any calculation of how much of a "sure thing" he is. But his performance fits in line with a typical age curve and it is hardly unreasonable for a player to struggle at 22/23 and break out at 24.

As for "new school" style, there is nothing "new school" about just using Bedrosian in the seventh or eighth instead of the ninth. Scioscia has always stuck with set roles and has already indicated he will again next year, so I'm working within that parameter. In an ideal world, I'd love to see Bedrosian in the fireman role sabermetricians have longed for over many years. But just pitching the seventh or eighth, instead of the ninth, is not that or even close to that. In a traditional bullpen setup, the closer is probably the most important role and should go to your best pitcher. That, pretty clearly, is Bedrosian. Some of your points about Bedorisan not being a sure thing are valid, but he can still regress big time and be a lot better than anyone else in the bullpen. My point before was that who even is our second best reliever anyway? I guess it's one of Street, Bailey, Ramirez or Guerra, which is a pretty terrible field. If Bedrosian isn't our best reliever, well, who the hell is it?

I never said anything about Scioscia never giving young players a chance, either. Sometimes he does. But he has a very long history of preferring veterans.

[eligrba]

Best case scenario has Street establishing himself as a reliable reliever that can be traded at the deadline.  I am ok with Scioscia giving Street more opportunities than anyone else for the first half of the season simply to help his marketability.