"A good clubhouse guy" - overrated?

[Blarg]

I really couldn't care less if they're friends. These are millionaires playing baseball for a living.

Just win, baby.

 

You do realize the last guy to use the just win, baby  philosophy drove his team into the dirt for decades?

[Hollyw00d]

That guy also won 3 super bowls, and their failures had nothing to do with their clubhouse chemistry

[Stradling]

Do you have a job Hollywood?

[tomsred]

i saw this title and immediately knew we were talking about shitty baseball players.

 

No, not really.  I think Trout, as Notti noted above is a great clubhouse guy.  Street would be another example.  Usually we're talking about veteran players, just because their experience is valuable and their personalities are more mature.  Exceptional young players who are confident and out spoken can fit the bill, maybe Simmons from what I've read.

[Hollyw00d]

Do you have a job Hollywood?

Yes. What does that have to do with the discussion?

[seenoevil]

I'm sure every championship has a douche bag on the team. Performance on the field is priority over great locker room guy but it's beneficial

[Stradling]

Yes. What does that have to do with the discussion?

Well baseball is their job. So I think notti answered the question pretty well by comparing it to his job. Now I don't know what you do for a living but unless you do work independent of others then you should understand that teamwork/work place relationships or chemistry is a vital part of a successful organization. Is it the most important thing, no, talent is, but it certainly has value.

[Blarg]

That guy also won 3 super bowls, and their failures had nothing to do with their clubhouse chemistry

 

That was 32 years ago (long before you were born) and Marcus Allen was their running back. Mr. Just Win Baby Davis sat the leagues best running back a few years after that season because he wasn't really a believer in clubhouse guys and was holding a grudge, and never saw another Superbowl championship again. 

 

Assholes in the clubhouse or the front office prevent winning.

[Stradling]

I'm sure every championship has a douche bag on the team. Performance on the field is priority over great locker room guy but it's beneficial

Exactly, you still need talent but the clubhouse is a contributing factor. Look at how bad the 88 Dodgers were on paper, they were average, and they won it all.

[tomsred]

The giants won rings with guys like:

Pablo Sandoval, who by most accounts is a lazy asshole

Buster Posey, who by some accounts is kind of a dick

Brian Wilson, nuff said

Barry freakin zito

 

Every team has some of both types.  I believe you could win everything with enough talent, and no chemistry, but it would be more expensive, no fun, and a real bitch to get there.  I'd rather win because the players genuinely liked and supported one another, and achieved the goal as a team by over achieving.

[Hollyw00d]

Well baseball is their job. So I think notti answered the question pretty well by comparing it to his job. Now I don't know what you do for a living but unless you do work independent of others then you should understand that teamwork/work place relationships or chemistry is a vital part of a successful organization. Is it the most important thing, no, talent is, but it certainly has value.

So you're trying to tell me that at in n out, which is a fantastic company, its acceptable to have a guy who's horrible at his job, calls in sick all the time, constantly forgets his responsibility, and the product suffers and customers are unhappy. But its ok because that guy tells jokes and makes the employees laugh?

I dont think so.

[Hollyw00d]

Every team has some of both types. I believe you could win everything with enough talent, and no chemistry, but it would be more expensive, no fun, and a real bitch to get there. I'd rather win because the players genuinely liked and supported one another, and achieved the goal as a team by over achieving.

No fun?

Winning is fun.

[Stradling]

So you're trying to tell me that at in n out, which is a fantastic company, its acceptable to have a guy who's horrible at his job, calls in sick all the time, constantly forgets his responsibility, and the product suffers and customers are unhappy. But its ok because that guy tells jokes and makes the employees laugh?

I dont think so.

No, ok so I may be late to the party but you are actually trolling me. I have said multiple times that it doesn't replace talent.

[Hollyw00d]

That was 32 years ago (long before you were born) and Marcus Allen was their running back. Mr. Just Win Baby Davis sat the leagues best running back a few years after that season because he wasn't really a believer in clubhouse guys and was holding a grudge, and never saw another Superbowl championship again.

Assholes in the clubhouse or the front office prevent winning.

The front office, yes. The manager's office, yes.

A shitty organizational philosophy and structure prevents winning, I will agree with that.

[Hollyw00d]

No, ok so I may be late to the party but you are actually trolling me. I have said multiple times that it doesn't replace talent.

It doesn't replace talent, like I said.

Employee chemistry is far down on the list of priorities

[Homebrewer]

It's important to draft, trade for, and sign players for 'character" as much as talent. It's why I never understood the Hamilton thing, since Artie is supposedly a clean cut guy who wants only players with solid values and good character.

"Good clubhouse guy" should be the norm, not something that makes one player stand out from another.

Scout and value character as well as talent, and you will have cohesion in the ranks.

[Hollyw00d]

Hamilton had great talent?

The league had figured him out before he even stepped foot in anaheim

[Stradling]

You ignoring clubhouse environment as an important aspect of team success means you must believe that a manager has a lot less impact on the play of a team than most on here think, you and I agree on that.

[Stradling]

Hamilton had great talent?

The league had figured him out before he even stepped foot in anaheim

He had a bad second half, LOTS AND LOTS of players have bad seasons. Now in the end you are right, the league had figured him out, but that wasn't all that obvious when we signed him. What isn't up for debate was his character.

[Homebrewer]

Hamilton had great talent?

__________________________________________________

Where did I say that?

Someone (Arte) must of thought he did, since he signed him for big bucks and ignored everything else.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Homebrewer

[m0nkey]

Over rated. 
You win, you have a "good clubhouse"

[tomsred]

Hamilton had great talent?

The league had figured him out before he even stepped foot in anaheim

 

Hamilton fooled everyone with his early success, and remarkable "recovery" story for a number of years.  When he started to age, personal issues caught up to him, and the league caught up to him it was pretty much game over.  I can't see him recovering at this point.  The Angels just got caught holding the last bag, and it was the one with the shit inside.

[Hollyw00d]

You ignoring clubhouse environment as an important aspect of team success means you must believe that a manager has a lot less impact on the play of a team than most on here think, you and I agree on that.

The manager can have an impact if he has talent but doesn't know how to use it, or doesn't put it in a position to succeed

[Hollyw00d]

If you have a guy that makes amazing burgers, but can't make fries to save his life, the manager would have an impact if he puts that guy at the fry station because its his philosophy and the employee has the body type and grit where he "should" be good at making fries.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Hollyw00d

[Troll Daddy]

I would say, overrated a little ... it's nice for everyone to get along but sometimes you need that player who is sort of a dick/douche. The dick/douche player needs to be a above average starter to pull it off.