Joe Maddon this post season...

[Tank]

I think it's more a case of Joe having been a fan of stats and open to listening to others who believed in them.  He was famous for keeping his own database with some peculiar stats, not the traditional ones you see associated with sabremetrics.

 

so, he uses vin scully stats. "wilson is batting .327 on tuesday afternoons with rwo runners on base and a flock of crows flying in from the south. But if it's a thursday, he's hitting .029 when facing a lefty who had sex during the previous homestand."

[eaterfan]

IP - I certainly agree with the sentiment of your first post but don't really think it's an entirely fair post. Scioscia certainly is deserving of some of the criticism that comes his way. A lot of his tactical decisions are puzzling. But you are correct in pointing out that every manager makes decisions that aren't by the book (I think that is the main point of your post along with that it's not what you do but how you do it that matters).

But I think there is far more to why Maddon is perceived as a great manager while MS is seen as a dinosaur. I know both managers were early adapters of the shift but MS went away from it for awhile once JM left and was hesitant to use it as much as other teams even recently. Also Maddon has shown willingness to experiment like going to his closer in a high leverage situation with no intent of letting him finish the game.

[Inside Pitch]

IP - I certainly agree with the sentiment of your first post but don't really think it's an entirely fair post. Scioscia certainly is deserving of some of the criticism that comes his way. A lot of his tactical decisions are puzzling. But you are correct in pointing out that every manager makes decisions that aren't by the book (I think that is the main point of your post along with that it's not what you do but how you do it that matters).

But I think there is far more to why Maddon is perceived as a great manager while MS is seen as a dinosaur. I know both managers were early adapters of the shift but MS went away from it for awhile once JM left and was hesitant to use it as much as other teams even recently. Also Maddon has shown willingness to experiment like going to his closer in a high leverage situation with no intent of letting him finish the game.

 

MS deserves A LOT of criticism -- his auto contact play is frustrating as hell.  I'm not trying to defend one or rank one above the other, I see them as being very similar with one glaring difference -- their personalities.

 

There is no question there is a different perception with Maddon, but having watched them both a great deal -- I think it's mostly perception...  When you watch his teams on a day to day basis you see just as many puzzling lineup moves and substitutions.   Joe is just better as explaining his thought processes or rather witty...  MS post game interviews are as entertaining as watching paint dry...

 

Its true that Joe Maddon has been a vocal supporter of sabermetrics, but does saying one thing then playing for a one run lead and moving guys over change the fact that his in game decisions tend to mirror MS?   At some point do people look beyond the perception?

Edited October 19, 2015 by Inside Pitch

[Stradling]

IP - I certainly agree with the sentiment of your first post but don't really think it's an entirely fair post. Scioscia certainly is deserving of some of the criticism that comes his way. A lot of his tactical decisions are puzzling. But you are correct in pointing out that every manager makes decisions that aren't by the book (I think that is the main point of your post along with that it's not what you do but how you do it that matters).

But I think there is far more to why Maddon is perceived as a great manager while MS is seen as a dinosaur. I know both managers were early adapters of the shift but MS went away from it for awhile once JM left and was hesitant to use it as much as other teams even recently. Also Maddon has shown willingness to experiment like going to his closer in a high leverage situation with no intent of letting him finish the game.

Well MS is only perceived as a dinosaur on AngelsWin. They are very similar, the only difference is one is more charismatic to the media and on social media. He also happens to be the one with more talent on his roster.

[Inside Pitch]

Eater,

 

I think a lot of the MS hate is a result of familiarity breeding contempt -- and I believe that is true of EVERY fan base and their current manager..   Fans see trends, when they work -- whatever -- when they fail..  OMG he's a moron!!!   I don't think Angel fans are any harsher on MS than they would be on anyone else that had been around as long as MS has..  But being an out of towner, I always try to catch at least one of the opposing team's feeds when they are playing an opponent.  It's always interesting to see how many announcers and opposing staffs gush about MS and a lot of the Angels players..     Erick Aybar is probably the guy most often referred to as a retard by the fan base and yet when you hear the opposing team they constantly talk up how smart he is and how he does things to try to goad the other team into mistakes... or allow another runner to advance..

 

Anyway -- I'm not saying you hate MS or anything along those lines.  But I do believe you brought up a really strong point -- there is a perception associated with MS that IMO basically blinds people.  A perception that has had more added to it since poor ole Jerry was forced to "quit."

Edited October 19, 2015 by Inside Pitch

[yk9001]

I was belaboring the point -- but yeah, I was referring to bunts of any kind really....   People around here seem to have issues with bunts..  but they tend to lose their minds whenever MS bunts with less than two outs because only an idiot (Scioscia) does that....   especially early in the game..   

 

I don't think us Scioscia-haters are necessarily against the bunt if its strategic for a base hits.

 

Its the bunting and giving up an out to get the runner over in the third inning of a game.

[Inside Pitch]

I don't think us Scioscia-haters are necessarily against the bunt if its strategic for a base hits.

 

Its the bunting and giving up an out to get the runner over in the third inning of a game.

 

Like Maddon tried to do in the second inning of a playoff game?   You know the play that forced an error and resulted in a 5 run inning....   That's what Im talking about when I say that nobody seems to notice or mind when it works -- but when it doesn't -- OMG!!!!    Maddon got lucky... the defense screwed the pooch, got tense, and crap snowballed..  

 

BTW, I dont really lump you in as a hater, I think most of your criticisms are on point when you do voice them.   

Edited October 19, 2015 by Inside Pitch

[Troll Daddy]

I don't think us Scioscia-haters are necessarily against the bunt if its strategic for a base hits.

Its the bunting and giving up an out to get the runner over in the third inning of a game.

I think the pitcher might have something to do with the early part of the game bunting.

I'm usually wrong

[Inside Pitch]

I think the pitcher might have something to do with the early part of the game bunting.

I'm usually wrong

 

MS always plays for the one run lead.... be it Pedro or some guy with a 7.45 ERA.   Anytime you're willing to sacrifice an out to try to get a run you stand a chance of hurting yourself or hinder your run scoring.   Pretty sure that's what YK is hinting at, and it's a fair criticism...    Those sorts of moves and the auto-contact play drive me apeshit.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Inside Pitch

[Tank]

MS always plays for the one run lead.... be it Pedro or some guy with a 7.45 ERA.   Anytime you're willing to sacrifice an out to try to get a run you stand a chance of hurting yourself or hinder your run scoring.   Pretty sure that's what YK is hinting at, and it's a fair criticism...    Those sorts of moves and the auto-contact play drive me apeshit.

 

someone brought up a good point . . . were any of those early bunts by the pitcher? in the NL it makes sense that if your pitcher isn't a very good hitter and it's the second inning with a runner on first and less than two outs, you try to move him along.  that's not a move i would criticize, fwiw (and i don't think you're doing that).

[Troll Daddy]

The contract play with no outs and no one on first or second base is usually not a good idea. I think with runners on it puts pressure on the defense and forces them to make a decision ... not the worst idea. Either way you're going to end up with a man in scoring position and possibly a bad throw to he plate. It also takes away the possible double play .

Edited October 20, 2015 by Troll Daddy

[moccasin]

The bunt in the second inning this thread is raving about was from the 8 and 9 hitters.

Do we ever complain about bunting with Featherston or the pitcher in interleague games?

 

MS bunted with friggin Kole Calhoun this season. Right in front of Trout. And he did it twice.

 

Every manager uses bunts. It's all about the context.

 

Alert us when Maddon asks Fowler to bunt in front of Schwarber.

[Hollyw00d]

Soooo....because maddon has adjusted his managing style to the league he now manages in, and scioscia hasn't and acts like he's managing the dodgers....they're somehow equal?

Flawless logic in this thread

[Hollyw00d]

I also have yet to see maddon ask one of his guys bunt in a 3-0 count, or one of his better hitters bunt in front of his worst hitter. Like scioscia did multiple times in 2014

Anyone who thinks he didn't handicap the offense in the 2014 playoffs either wasn't paying attention, or they have their sosh blinders on

[Lou]

Mike Scioscia - won World Series in 3rd season as MLB manager

Joe Maddon - zero for 10 seasons

Advantage: Scioscia

[Hollyw00d]

Mike Scioscia - won World Series in 3rd season as MLB manager

Joe Maddon - zero for 10 seasons

Advantage: Scioscia

Tim lincecum won 3 world series in the past 5 years.

Garret richards: Zero world series titles

Advantage: Timmy

[seenoevil]

Tim lincecum won 3 world series in the past 5 years.

Garret richards: Zero world series titles

Advantage: Timmy

Dam

[Lou]

Lincecum has been a MUCH better pitcher than Richards.

It's not even close.

[Hollyw00d]

Since when?

[Inside Pitch]

Soooo....because maddon has adjusted his managing style to the league he now manages in, and scioscia hasn't and acts like he's managing the dodgers....they're somehow equal?

Flawless logic in this thread

 

Yes -- thats it exactly..    Tell me more about flawless logic when you get done with the revisionist history.

[Hollyw00d]

No revisionist history here. Check the box scores for the 2014 ALDS

Be sure to take your blinders off first

[halomatt]

Eater,

 

I think a lot of the MS hate is a result of familiarity breeding contempt -- and I believe that is true of EVERY fan base and their current manager..   Fans see trends, when they work -- whatever -- when they fail..  OMG he's a moron!!!   I don't think Angel fans are any harsher on MS than they would be on anyone else that had been around as long as MS has..  But being an out of towner, I always try to catch at least one of the opposing team's feeds when they are playing an opponent.  It's always interesting to see how many announcers and opposing staffs gush about MS and a lot of the Angels players..     Erick Aybar is probably the guy most often referred to as a retard by the fan base and yet when you hear the opposing team they constantly talk up how smart he is and how he does things to try to goad the other team into mistakes... or allow another runner to advance..

 

Anyway -- I'm not saying you hate MS or anything along those lines.  But I do believe you brought up a really strong point -- there is a perception associated with MS that IMO basically blinds people.  A perception that has had more added to it since poor ole Jerry was forced to "quit."

I agree.  I think it's often a combination of many false ideas/fallacies.  I've seen everything from Confirmation Bias, Selective Bias, Argument from Ignorance, to psych/sociology phenonmena such as primacy/recency bias.  Our perceptions are truly filtered by personal bias.

 

I'm definitely not an either/or kinda person when it comes to Scioscia.  For example, I know he likes the Contact Play, but I also know he doesn't use it ALL THE TIME.  It may seem that way, but in fact, he does hold the guys once in a while.  I seem to remember Old Man Pujols NOT going on a contact play towards the end of the season. 

[Stradling]

I also have yet to see maddon ask one of his guys bunt in a 3-0 count, or one of his better hitters bunt in front of his worst hitter. Like scioscia did multiple times in 2014

Anyone who thinks he didn't handicap the offense in the 2014 playoffs either wasn't paying attention, or they have their sosh blinders on

You do know the offense was doing absolutely nothing in the playoffs, right? They were awful, like incredibly bad. The only reason it doesn't look worse is because they had a decent game three. Game three is when Trout had his first hit of the series. You can say he hindered it, I say he was trying to make something happen because quite frankly nothing was happening. The offense lost that series for us, even more so than Hamilton playing or the bunt call or whatever else happened or didn't.

[Lou]

Since you seem to have trouble following along, I'll spell it out for you.

1. I made a comment comparing the managerial CAREERS of Scioscia and Maddon.

2. You replied to said comment with a comparison on Lincecum and Richards.

3. Richards'' career isn't close to what Linecum's has been. At GR's age, Lincecum had 1 of his 2 consecutive Cy Young awards under his belt.

Therefore, you are arguing that Richards' career has been better than Lincecum's, or you just have trouble following an argument and merely choose to argue apples to oranges.

[Hollyw00d]

Or your argument is irrelevant, the most likely case.