9/11 Misremembering - Many of you are Brain Williams.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Hamas is a Greek style bean dip while Hezbollah is a New Jersey bowling ally and strip joint.

well i said most dont know. Obviously youre more learn-ed blarg, not like these other neanderthals

[ten ocho recon scout]

Slightly off topic, but theres a ton of people out there who still think bin laden was on our payroll in the 80s. This isnt true either. And it stems from us as 'uninterested' americans lumping different groups into the same, much as we believed all muslims were the same (before we started breaking down the difference between the sunnis and shia).

We provided billions in money and arms to the pakistani ISI, who in turn funded the muj against the soviets. Bin ladens group, as well as the other arab muj werent part of that, theyw had their own money. And by most accounts, bin laden and his crew vastly overexaggerated their role in the soviet/afghan war.

Theres a reason we had contacts with the northern alliance right after 9/11. Not sure how many remember amad massoud and how he went down just prior to 9/11, but its all tied in.

Arch stanton can probably cover it better than i can, but the birthplace of modern day extremism (islamic) is in egypt. The extension are the wahabbis in SA, and on to the madrassas in pakistan. Its bigger and more complicated than the general public is interested in reading about. If anyone is interested in a broadbased but very good breakdown of it, theres a great book called the looming tower. Obviously its too big of a subject to get the whole picture into one book, but its a great one volume cover of the seed that led to 9/11.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Nice Fox News approach with this post, going with the UBL.

keeps me from misspelling his full name...i always say ben instead of bin

[DowningRules]

I flew into Atocha, Madrid, Spain on 9/11.  My passport is stamped 11-9-02, in Euro style.  Got a ride to the hotel and turned on the telly to CNN International and saw the first tower on fire.  The news folk presumed it was an accident. 

 

I stayed glued to the telly for most of the day.  

 

The weirdest damned feeling I ever got was when I finally left the hotel and saw the US Embassy being guarded by tanks outside its walls.  There were a few military folk looking around with machine guns and very, very serious looks on their faces.  Let's just say it would not have been a good day for a protest. 

 

Later that night, some drunk dude encountered me and told me how great the attack was.  I didn't react.  I felt bad for him.  Another Spaniard told the dude to f off in so many words.

[wopphil]

I remember that day better than probably any other day of my life. My mom woke me up telling me that my dad needed me to go to work (family business) and that a plane had hit the WTC. Like many, I assumed she meant a Cessna plane.

I remember my sister telling me that the first tower had collapsed. I assumed she meant the top fell off - not that the whole building had come down.

I ate lunch that day at the Carl's Jr. on Technology in Irvine. The place was packed, and every single person had his/her glued to the televisions.

I also remember being in a conference room of a company that day and hearing two guys talked. One wanted to talk company business and about his "problems" with the company, and the other basically told him to STFU because there were people with real problems.

I guess what stands out is seeing a side of people that I had never seen before.

I also remember feeling extremely proud when a few days later I saw a gardener truck full of Mexicans flying a huge ass flag in the bed. Made me proud to see everyone united and patriotic, regardless of their origin.

[Adam]

I called my parents house and left a voicemail for

my brother stating I was Colonel Brian Reeve with the United States Marine Corps, that I would be by on 9/13 to conduct psychologlical and physical testing that I would be brining his enrollment papers.

[ten ocho recon scout]

I'm pretty sure what led to it was the Unites States' military campaigns in the Middle East for the 50 years leading up to 9/11. Bin Laden himself said that that is precisely why they attacked, it had nothing to do with us being "free and prosperous" or non-Muslim which was/is naively accepted by most. This basic dilemma in foreign policy is called "blowback" and is something the US continues to be oblivious to.

If i have confused you with another poster, my apologies in advance, but i thought you said before that our govt was behind 9/11. (Again, my appologies if it was someone else). But if so, wouldnt thawt mute bin laden saying that?

As far as our foreign policy, thats far too pedestrian of an explaination. Our meddling in the ME have nothing to do with why zawahiri and islamic jihad (the original group) killed sadat, and why AQ for years has been trying to overthrow the saudi royals. Nor the directed violence towards the shia, throughout egypt in the 80s/90s, the mosque takeover in mecca in 1979, etc etc. The arab spring has nothing to do with us, but look what its led too.

Our policy in the ME have nothing to do with the jihad against the indians. Throughout malaysia, etc. Google sayyid qutb.......hes a good starting point. And if you read his views, and read up on exactly who hes connected to and his influence, you see the seeds of what exists today.

Im not at all arguing we havent shit the bed plenty on foreign affairs. The lebanon fiasco in the 80s was the turning point. That said,that had nothing to do with bin laden or AQ. AQ tried several times to link our isreali foreign policy into his cause, and repeatedly hezbollah and hamas have publicly seperated themselves from those attempts, saying directly its not at all related.

Bottom line, AQ and its generation had one main goal, to overthrow the etgyptian (zawahiri) and saudi (bin laden) govts. We were the backbone of what kept them in power. The point wasnt to fight us openly, it was to get us to withdraw from the ME and stop supporting who they want gone.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_seizure. Thats a good brief on the 79 takeover i mentioned. Thats the roots of what AQ turned into...had nothing to do with us

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb

And hes the alexander hamilton if you will of islamacism

[Vegas Halo Fan]

I was at work on the night shift in the medical department at a medium security men's prison. We had no television and we didn't have news radio on, so I heard the first news of the 9/11 attacks from incoming members of the day shift. The attacks had begun just before they left for work. One person told me that the Pentagon had been hit and another told me the World Trade Center. I didn't know how anyone could confuse the two. I didn't realize until after I got home and started watching CNN that these were separate attacks carried out using commercial airliners.

[fan_since79]

Is it true that Clinton had a chance to capture bin Laden years before 9/11 and declined to do so?

Edited March 15, 2015 by fan_since79

[Glen]

The reliability of memory is a fascinating subject.  I talk to my brother about events that happened to both of us and we have different memories of the specifics, even though it was the same event.  Memory is flexible and tends to be self-serving.  

 

As for 9/11: my memories are distinct because of certain circumstances.  I was driving in to work at NAS North Island and listening to NPR.  Before I got to the gate, news of the first tower being hit was announced.  At the time, before word of the second tower being hit was announced, it was speculated that it may have been a terrible accident.  I then made it to the main gate and flashed my ID card to gain entry, and the guard barely noticed it before waving me in.  I remember thinking I could have showed him just about anything to get in because he wasn't paying attention.  Then, as I was driving to my squadron there was word of the second tower strike and the attendant speculation.  All flight activity on base was shut down that day and we spent it watching the news.

 

That thought process, about how easy it was to get on base, is fixed in my mind because of the juxtaposition of getting on base the next day.  Traffic was backed up half-span on the Coronado bridge because they were doing full-vehicle checks, and it took me about 2.5 hours to get on base.  The next two days, only essential personnel had to report to base and I was non-essential.  

[Glen]

Is it true that Clinton had a chance to capture bin Laden years before 9/11 and declined to do so?

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/01/clinton-passed-on-killing-bin-laden/

 

It's debatable, but republicans swear it's the truth.

[The Ghost of Bob Starr]

The reliability of memory is a fascinating subject.  I talk to my brother about events that happened to both of us and we have different memories of the specifics, even though it was the same event.  Memory is flexible and tends to be self-serving.  

 

As for 9/11: my memories are distinct because of certain circumstances.  I was driving in to work at NAS North Island and listening to NPR.  Before I got to the gate, news of the first tower being hit was announced.  At the time, before word of the second tower being hit was announced, it was speculated that it may have been a terrible accident.  I then made it to the main gate and flashed my ID card to gain entry, and the guard barely noticed it before waving me in.  I remember thinking I could have showed him just about anything to get in because he wasn't paying attention.  Then, as I was driving to my squadron there was word of the second tower strike and the attendant speculation.  All flight activity on base was shut down that day and we spent it watching the news.

 

That thought process, about how easy it was to get on base, is fixed in my mind because of the juxtaposition of getting on base the next day.  Traffic was backed up half-span on the Coronado bridge because they were doing full-vehicle checks, and it took me about 2.5 hours to get on base.  The next two days, only essential personnel had to report to base and I was non-essential.  

 

Glen, your first statement is very true.

 

We did a piece once for channel four, where we had a courtroom full of prosecutors - they were all seated in the audience section.   And they thought they were there to hear a seminar about some new procedure in the court.   Anyways, a woman was speaking from one of the counsels' table, and I wheeled in a trash can, posing as a janitor,  and ultimately "stole" the woman's purse, and ran off into the judge's chambers.

 

They took six volunteers who thought they could be reliable witnesses and provide an accurate description.   I had sunglasses on, a hat backwards, short hair, was 5'11" and 190.    The six so-called "expert" witnesses relayed what they saw to Steve Werblum, the famed courtroom artist, and he drew out the six descriptions.

 

They ranged from having me from 5'6" to 6'2" and weighing 150 to 225.   Varied degrees of complexion from very dark to very light skinned.  Some had me with glasses, but the glasses were all different looking (round, angular, bigger, smaller.)  Some had me having long hair.   The clothes description were all different.   The only thing I think they had right, was that I had a hat on backwards.   

 

Afterwards, they were stunned at how off they were.   How what happens in a flash, can even be distorted only 30 minutes to an hour after it happens.   And they have to convict people based on witness testimony, that can happen suddenly, in terrifying situations, and they often will need to be accurate months or even years later.

 

Memory is a tricky little bugger.

[Glen]

As I said, it is fascinating.  I've read about similar studies that demonstrate the unreliability of witnesses. 

[DowningRules]

Glen, your first statement is very true.

 

We did a piece once for channel four, where we had a courtroom full of prosecutors - they were all seated in the audience section.   And they thought they were there to hear a seminar about some new procedure in the court.   Anyways, a woman was speaking from one of the counsels' table, and I wheeled in a trash can, posing as a janitor,  and ultimately "stole" the woman's purse, and ran off into the judge's chambers.

 

They took six volunteers who thought they could be reliable witnesses and provide an accurate description.   I had sunglasses on, a hat backwards, short hair, was 5'11" and 190.    The six so-called "expert" witnesses relayed what they saw to Steve Werblum, the famed courtroom artist, and he drew out the six descriptions.

 

They ranged from having me from 5'6" to 6'2" and weighing 150 to 225.   Varied degrees of complexion from very dark to very light skinned.  Some had me with glasses, but the glasses were all different looking (round, angular, bigger, smaller.)  Some had me having long hair.   The clothes description were all different.   The only thing I think they had right, was that I had a hat on backwards.   

 

Afterwards, they were stunned at how off they were.   How what happens in a flash, can even be distorted only 30 minutes to an hour after it happens.   And they have to convict people based on witness testimony, that can happen suddenly, in terrifying situations, and they often will need to be accurate months or even years later.

 

Memory is a tricky little bugger.

 

 

How rad!  I totally remember seeing this.  

[The Ghost of Bob Starr]

How rad! I totally remember seeing this.

Really? Sweet DR. It was a Rick Chambers piece.