Even Massachusetts has crazy right-wingers

[mtangelsfan]

Why should your moral compass override mine?

[mtangelsfan]

I guess what I am trying to say is that we live in a democratic society where everyone is supposed to have a voice, is it your argument that I should not have one because I am religious?

[nate]

My point is I think you are absolutely entitled to your voice, but I think everyone should be, I do not think one persons beliefs should ever be compulsory for everyone.

 

By making laws that ban cloning, abortion, etc, you are forcing others to live under your beliefs, when they may not believe in them.

 

If you don't believe in abortion, then don't have an abortion.  If you don't believe in cloning, then don't buy cloned goods.  If you don't believe in gay marriage, then don't have sex with the same sex.  If you don't believe in birth control, don't take birth control, etc.

[mtangelsfan]

Of course everyone should be.  Don't you voice your moral compass?  By voting your moral compass are you forcing people to live under your moral compass?

[nate]

When it comes to social issues, I always vote for the least possible regulation.  I do not think it is my place or the governments place to tell other people how to live their lives.

[mtangelsfan]

There are plenty of non-religious folks who may not vote the way you do.  They vote to tax people more to take better care of the poor (in their minds).  Would not that be the same?

[Adam]

This is a very good topic for debate. I have issues with the entire legislative and democratic process. I think more than anything I have a problem with the insane amounts of money spent proposing & fighting legislation and in the political process altogether. It is sad to think about how many people could receive real help with those dollars. 

[nate]

Taxes pay for things to run the country.

 

Preventing abortion, or gay marriage does nothing other than satisfy your morals and oppress those that don't share them.

[nate]

This is a very good topic for debate. I have issues with the entire legislative and democratic process. I think more than anything I have a problem with the insane amounts of money spent proposing & fighting legislation and in the political process altogether. It is sad to think about how many people could receive real help with those dollars. 

 

Absolutely.

 

I am a huge fan of what Bill Gates is doing.  Instead of lobbying for business or even his charity, he just takes his money and spends it on improvements.  Schools, highways, vaccines, etc.  If only our politicians, lobbyists and government followed that lead.

[mtangelsfan]

Taxes pay for things to run the country.

 

Preventing abortion, or gay marriage does nothing other than satisfy your morals and oppress those that don't share them.

 

and unjust wars.  Spying.  assasinating citizens  drone attacks.  etc.  bottom line is that you just want to shut religious folks up.  We are fine when we are running our missions and feednig the poor.  Just as long as we keep our mouths shut.  Every Christian has a duty as a citizen of this country to vote their conscience just like everyone else does.  Nothing more, nothing less. 

Edited March 7, 2014 by mtangelsfan

[mtangelsfan]

I knew this discussion would end up being pointless.  It always does.

[nate]

and unjust wars.  Spying.  assasinatin citizens  drone attacks.  etc.  bottom line is that you just want to shut religious folks up.  We are fine when we are running our missions and feedig the poor.  Just as long as we keep our mouths shut.  Every Christian has a duty as a citizen of this country to vote their conscience just like everyone else does.  Nothing more, nothing less. 

 

Christians can make as much noise as they want.  My point is their views should not be forced on me by my government.

[mtangelsfan]

LOL, but yours should be forced on me.  Got it.

[nate]

LOL, but yours should be forced on me.  Got it.

 

Come on, you laugh but you know the difference.  My views are that there aren't any to be forced on anyone.  My views are freedom from religion.  My views are that don't stop me from doing what I want because your religion says it is bad.

[mtangelsfan]

That is some of your views, but that is just yours Nate.  Not everyone who isn't religious and you know that.  What happens when the first gay couple sues a church for refusing to marry them?  Where do you stand then?  You know they will. 

 

You tossed out my tax example like it was nothing but I would argue that what I can do with my own money is one of the most important things I can do.  My time and my pocketbook are the two areas where I can make an impact and help people.  They want to dictate who my money helps instead of me controlling it. 

 

Liberal morals dictate how tax money is spent, not just that it is taken.  Liberal morals tell businesses who they should hire.  Liberal morals tell farmers how much of their own land they can actually farm.

Liberal morals heap burden upon burden on small business and continue to widen the gap between the upper and lower class.  So please stop making the argument that somehow religious folks are the only ones shoving their morals down people's throats.  Because its a bunch of BS.

[nate]

MT, you know the difference between a social issue and a fiscal one.

 

Your tax issue is different.  Tax laws aren't based on religion, they are based on accounting.

 

If a gay couple sues a church for not marrying them then I hope the gay couple loses.  For the same reason I think it is BS that in Detroit pizza delivery companies are required to deliver to all places within X miles, even if it is dangerous gang territory.

 

That isn't what this is about.  You are stopping gays from marrying, you are stopping women from having abortions, you are preventing cloning, you are stymieing science in the name of religion, and the government is backing it.

 

Again this is what I don't get.  Nobody is saying you can't have your religious views and beliefs.  I am saying you cannot legislate it, you can't make it compulsory for those that do not believe it.  You are restricting, I am saying there should be no restriction.

Edited March 7, 2014 by nate

[mtangelsfan]

Nate, if tax laws were based only on accounting they would actually make sense.  You also know I'm talking about budget issues and how that money is spent.  You have made this dichotomy between social and fiscal issues as if morals dont play out in the fiscal ones. 

 

You know they do, you are affected everyday by it because of the ACA.

[nate]

They are two completely different things.  Taxes pay for things, many of them you might not agree with.

 

Laws that prohibit things based on religion are not fiscal in nature, they are completely social.  You telling someone they cannot get married is completely different than telling someone they have to pay for the NEA.

[mtangelsfan]

Ok, lets get back to my other examples.  What about telling farmers how much of their land they can farm, or what they can grow?  Or businesses who they should hire?  How about smog requirements?  What about the ACA?  That really isn't a tax and you know that.

[nate]

You know damn well I am against many of those things.  What do they have to do with religious morals though?

 

Also, by the way, considering how much tax money we give to farms every year, I am fine with telling them what to do, to some extent.

Edited March 7, 2014 by nate

[mtangelsfan]

They don't have anything to do with religious morals, which is exactly my point Nate.  Morals and laws are as intertwined as you can possibly be.  You seem to believe that your set of morals is somehow more qualified than morals based off of religion.  We have laws, mostly to right some kind of wrong.  Who gets to say what is right and what is wrong?

 

 

BTW, I used to feel the same way about the farming thing as you do until I lived out here for a few years.  I can tell you that the only reason the government gives so much money to farmers is because the very same government screws the farmers up so bad to begin with.  A vast majority of them would be much happier if the government just left them alone to farm what they wanted, when they wanted and where they wanted and sell to whom they wanted for what they wanted.  But the government has a say in pretty much every one of those things.

[nate]

My point this whole time is I do not believe in legislating on my set of morals.  I believe that no set of morals should be the basis of social legislation.

 

We pay farms a ton of money to grow the crops our country needs.  I have a huge problem with farm subsidy and the laws that govern what and how they farm.  Like the BS law CA passed about giving cows, that are going to be slaughtered, more space to roam.

 

Anyway I know we will never see eye to eye on this.  It was a good argument as usual.

[mtangelsfan]

Without morals, there is no law.  Or if you want to call it ethics.

 

Society dictates its wrong to steal, its wrong to kill. 

[Jason]

I think most social issues are rooted with morals. I think that's why most Americans are so divided on them.

[mtangelsfan]

All issues are rooted in morals.  How we spend our tax dollars is rooted in morals.