Risers and Fallers

[Tyler]

Perhaps I was a bit harsh, but I expected more out of him. Surely injuries have hampered his development, but going from poor plate discipline to slightly less poor plate discipline wasn't enough to make my risers list. But maybe you guys think a .300 OBP is a great sign in AA.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Shane

[Toby Ziegler]

We're talking about Grichuk right? Not only did his power numbers improve, but his BB rate improved as well. He's still a "free swinger" but he has shown improvement in that regard.

 

I see absolutely no reason whatsoever for him to be on your "fallers" list, other than his AVG being lower, but that is stupid.

 

4.0% to 5.2%. That is a marginal improvement. Still bad plate discipline.

 

Cron "improved" as well. He went from 3.1% to 4.1%.

 

Lindsey is the only one of those guys who has actually demonstrated tangible improvement. He went from 4.9% to 8.5%. That's a dramatic change.

 

For the record, the average walk rate in the Texas League is 8.0%.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Toby Ziegler

[mtangelsfan]

Toby, I'm glad your brother is kicking ass for the Angels farm.

 

I don't really see what you or he gains by tearing down other Angel farm players though.

[Toby Ziegler]

Toby, I'm glad your brother is kicking ass for the Angels farm.

 

I don't really see what you or he gains by tearing down other Angel farm players though.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing I just posted was inaccurate. Cron and Grichuk have below average plate discipline, and their development in that part of their game has been marginal at best.

 

This is an irrefutable fact.

 

Shane has been criticized because he refused to put Grichuk on his risers list. He cited Grichuk's power as his only real improvement, and he is not wrong on that front.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Toby Ziegler

[Tyler]

whhhaaa?

[UCLAngel]

I thought Shane was criticized more for putting Grichuk on the Fallers list than for not putting him on the Risers list.

[Docwaukee]

I'm pretty disappointed with Cron's season. guys with light tower power shouldn't slug .430. he's got no discipline and the marginally improved walk rate is offset by his mild increase in strikeout rate. He actually hit better at home than on the road which makes me think it was less of an issue with the park than the competition. It's why Lindsey's year was even more impressive. Especially considering his age.

[Make Angels Great Again]

Toby, I'm glad your brother is kicking ass for the Angels farm.

 

I don't really see what you or he gains by tearing down other Angel farm players though.

 

 

I don't think he was trying to tear down Angel prospects at all. I think you're being a little harsh.

[FireThemAll]

Toby, I'm glad your brother is kicking ass for the Angels farm.

 

I don't really see what you or he gains by tearing down other Angel farm players though.

 

I'm not sure if that's what he's doing at all, MT. I think he's actually looking at the situation with some objectivity. He's praised Berg and Lindsey, and he's said that Grichuk and Cron have bad plate discipline. Not only do I agree with both of those things, but I also think he's making a legit effort to contribute to the board in a rational way. I don't think he sounds bitter at all in this thread, and I don't think he's purposely tearing other players down. He's high on some players, low on others. Just like basically all of us. 

[mtangelsfan]

I'm not sure if that's what he's doing at all, MT. I think he's actually looking at the situation with some objectivity. He's praised Berg and Lindsey, and he's said that Grichuk and Cron have bad plate discipline. Not only do I agree with both of those things, but I also think he's making a legit effort to contribute to the board in a rational way. I don't think he sounds bitter at all in this thread, and I don't think he's purposely tearing other players down. He's high on some players, low on others. Just like basically all of us. 

 

Maybe I'm wrong, and if that was the first post where he has criticised other Angel farm players I'd be more apt to admit so.

[tdawg87]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing I just posted was inaccurate. Cron and Grichuk have below average plate discipline, and their development in that part of their game has been marginal at best.

 

This is an irrefutable fact.

 

Shane has been criticized because he refused to put Grichuk on his risers list. He cited Grichuk's power as his only real improvement, and he is not wrong on that front.

 

No, his POST has been criticized because he put Grichuk on his "fallers" list, which doesn't make sense. You both just admitted that he improved in a tough league for hitters. Even if it was really just one aspect, it's still an improvement and not indicative of "falling" in any sense.

[Tyler]

Would you say his season was disappointing?

[tdawg87]

Not at all. .780 OPS in the Texas league? I'll take that.

[Tyler]

I'll admit, I am definitely in the community that values getting on base as an indicator of future success. I do hope that he has a big jump next season in his walk rate, but I don't see it as likely.

 

Anybody else think Grichuk repeats AA next year?

[jshep]

I'm pretty disappointed with Cron's season. guys with light tower power shouldn't slug .430. he's got no discipline and the marginally improved walk rate is offset by his mild increase in strikeout rate. He actually hit better at home than on the road which makes me think it was less of an issue with the park than the competition. It's why Lindsey's year was even more impressive. Especially considering his age.

 

Ya, his 2013 was utterly underwhelming. It basically addressed none of the issues in Cron's game, and it wasn't even a year of more of the same from 2012 to get excited about either.

 

I feel like there's a pretty sound argument to drop Cron out of the organization's top 10 prospects at this point.

 

Guys I would probably rank ahead of him in no particular order:

The Brothers Green(assuming Grant still qualifies at the end of the year, which I think so?): Hunter and Grant

Lindsey

Borenstein

Sappington

Yarbrough

Grichuk

Rondon

Morin(and I say this as someone who's usually a little more hesitant with RP prospects, but Morin has just been SO DAMN GOOD)

Despite a worse year, I would still have Cowart here(although lower than this time last year obviously) over Cron. Still has age and an ability to actually play a position in his favor there.

Cases could be made for Alvarez, Stamets, etc. as well.

[James]

Maybe I'm wrong, and if that was the first post where he has criticised other Angel farm players I'd be more apt to admit so.

 

He has really only stated the reality of a player in this thread. Not sure why you are the only one who sees it differently. Odd considering many of the posters here are the same ones that had it out with him at first. 

 

As for Grichuk, he is just one of those prospects that people who follow the minor leagues will always disagree about. I don't know if I would say he is falling even though I am in the camp that questions his ability to produce on a regular basis.

[FireThemAll]

Ya, his 2013 was utterly underwhelming. It basically addressed none of the issues in Cron's game, and it wasn't even a year of more of the same from 2012 to get excited about either.

 

I feel like there's a pretty sound argument to drop Cron out of the organization's top 10 prospects at this point.

 

Guys I would probably rank ahead of him in no particular order:

The Brothers Green(assuming Grant still qualifies at the end of the year, which I think so?): Hunter and Grant

Lindsey

Borenstein

Sappington

Yarbrough

Grichuk

Rondon

Morin(and I say this as someone who's usually a little more hesitant with RP prospects, but Morin has just been SO DAMN GOOD)

Despite a worse year, I would still have Cowart here(although lower than this time last year obviously) over Cron. Still has age and an ability to actually play a position in his favor there.

Cases could be made for Alvarez, Stamets, etc. as well.

 

Good post Jshep. I'm with you completely on this one. 

[mtangelsfan]

He has really only stated the reality of a player in this thread. Not sure why you are the only one who sees it differently. Odd considering many of the posters here are the same ones that had it out with him at first. 

 

As for Grichuk, he is just one of those prospects that people who follow the minor leagues will always disagree about. I don't know if I would say he is falling even though I am in the camp that questions his ability to produce on a regular basis.

 

because I'm not just going off of this thread.  Anyway, it's not a big deal.

[Inside Pitch]

No, his POST has been criticized because he put Grichuk on his "fallers" list, which doesn't make sense. You both just admitted that he improved in a tough league for hitters. Even if it was really just one aspect, it's still an improvement and not indicative of "falling" in any sense.

 

Personally wasn't being critical of Shane, I just view Grichuk's season differently.  I share his concerns about Grichuk's plate discipline but it's worth noting that the part of his game that is questionable, actually improved in a significantly harder hitting environment where he was still below the league average age..  Plate discipline has long been considered a veteran tool..  as long as he keeps taking baby steps in the right direction it's a reason for hope.

 

RG just completeld his age 21 season with a full year in AA.  He could repeat the league two more years and still be viewed as being at the league optional age.

[Angel Oracle]

Agreed IP, but I see Grichuk moving on up to AAA in 2014.    His AA season was solid enough that he is ready for the next level.

[Inside Pitch]

Agreed IP, but I see Grichuk moving on up to AAA in 2014.    His AA season was solid enough that he is ready for the next level.

 

 

He can easily move up to AAA, and in that park he would put up some numbers.  But there is a part of me that wants them to say -- hey, hold up.  Work on your pitch selection a bit and earn that promotion.

 

SLC will help mask his flaws....  MLB wil expose them.  

[Scott34]

He can easily move up to AAA, and in that park he would put up some numbers.  But there is a part of me that wants them to say -- hey, hold up.  Work on your pitch selection a bit and earn that promotion.

 

SLC will help mask his flaws....  MLB wil expose them.  

 

I thought about your first point today, but I came to the conclusion that a confidence-killing holdup would be more damaging than sending him to AAA.  He can still work on pitch selection in AAA whereas he might be discouraged by another stint in AA.

[Second Base]

Agreed.  SLC can really be a confidence boost for an offensive player like Grichuk.  He' only one step away from the show, playing against teams littered with major league talent in an environment that really puts the hitter at an advantage.  I think it sets a player like Grichuk up for success. 

 

Now keeping a player in AAA for three years could become a very detrimental decision, and that's something else entirely.  But a year and a half in AAA isn't such a bad thing. 

[ettin]

Agreed.  SLC can really be a confidence boost for an offensive player like Grichuk.  He' only one step away from the show, playing against teams littered with major league talent in an environment that really puts the hitter at an advantage.  I think it sets a player like Grichuk up for success. 

 

Now keeping a player in AAA for three years could become a very detrimental decision, and that's something else entirely.  But a year and a half in AAA isn't such a bad thing. 

 

Also playing in SLC can inflate his numbers and make him a more attractive trade target.

[Inside Pitch]

I thought about your first point today, but I came to the conclusion that a confidence-killing holdup would be more damaging than sending him to AAA.  He can still work on pitch selection in AAA whereas he might be discouraged by another stint in AA.

 

 

I don't really want to try to play the part of a shrink, but I think you are vastly underestimating the impact a park like SLC can have on a player.  Bad habits tend to be brushed off too easily when the home park is masking the issues -- I've seen it happen a lot over the years.   I'm not saying they need to keep him in AA, I'm saying it wouldn't hurt him to have him repeat AA initially and work on his plate discipline as a way of making him earn his promotion.   I understand you think that might hurt his confidence, not sure how having success in a league where you "struggled" previously would hurt your confidence but let's assume it could...  I'd argue a guy his age wrecking SLC in part because his game is really well suited for the hitting environment there is more likely to have that confidence destroyed by moving to Anaheim and suddenly having his flaws exposed.   

 

Pick your poison.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Inside Pitch