The Official Los Angeles Angels 2023-2024 Hot Stove Offseason Thread

[BTH]

Just now, CartiHalos said:

Murray did indeed break the Plesac signing so maybe he has a good source inside the org, but I really just think nobody knows what the Angels are actually up to.

I believe he has very good sources in the Angels org, maybe the best of any insider.

If you just search tweets from him with “Angels” in the tweet on Twitter, you’ll see that he has broken a ton of stuff.

Ranging from minor moves to big moves.

O’Hoppe trade, Moustakas trade, Bachman & Mederos promotions, Raisel Iglesias trade, Michael Lorenzen signing, etc.

[Erstad Grit]

1 minute ago, BTH said:

I believe he has very good sources in the Angels org, maybe the best of any insider.

If you just search tweets from him with “Angels” in the tweet on Twitter, you’ll see that he has broken a ton of stuff.

Ranging from minor moves to big moves.

O’Hoppe trade, Moustakas trade, Bachman & Mederos promotions, Raisel Iglesias trade, Michael Lorenzen signing, etc.

100% agree. For me he's the most trustworthy Angel rumor source. 

[Chuck]

6 minutes ago, CartiHalos said:

Murray did indeed break the Plesac signing so maybe he has a good source inside the org, but I really just think nobody knows what the Angels are actually up to.

I can say this, Murray is the closest connected to the Angels out there of all the media heads. 

I wouldn’t be shocked if the Angels sign Josh Hader and/or Stroman from what I understand.

[Angels 1961]

7 minutes ago, CartiHalos said:

Murray did indeed break the Plesac signing so maybe he has a good source inside the org, but I really just think nobody knows what the Angels are actually up to.

Perry said halos were going to be aggressive but that was before Ohtani signed with Dodgers. Once that happened things have changed. Perry and Arte have done a U-Turn going in a totally new direction.

[BTH]

2 minutes ago, Chuck said:

I can say this, Murray is the closest connected to the Angels out there of all the media heads. 

I wouldn’t be shocked if the Angels sign Josh Hader and/or Stroman from what I understand.

Murray today again mentioned the Angels with Stroman.

It seems to me like Stroman is by far the most likely SP among the Snell/Montgomery/Imanaga/Stroman group.

[jsnpritchett]

4 minutes ago, Chuck said:

I can say this, Murray is the closest connected to the Angels out there of all the media heads. 

I wouldn’t be shocked if the Angels sign Josh Hader and/or Stroman from what I understand.

Signing Hader seems like a waste of resources for where the team is right now, but what do I know?  He'll likely get the largest contract ever (or close to it) for a closer.  Seems like something a team that's on the verge of winning it all would do to shore up things, not something a team in the Angels' position should be doing.

[Chuck]

5 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

Signing Hader seems like a waste of resources for where the team is right now, but what do I know?  He'll likely get the largest contract ever (or close to it) for a closer.  Seems like something a team that's on the verge of winning it all would do to shore up things, not something a team in the Angels' position should be doing.

Totally agree, but Arte is going to Arte.

[Taylor]

1 hour ago, Dtwncbad said:

Maybe they are friends that trust each other?

Have you changed your stance on anonymous sources again?

[Dgar24]

16 minutes ago, Chuck said:

I can say this, Murray is the closest connected to the Angels out there of all the media heads. 

I wouldn’t be shocked if the Angels sign Josh Hader and/or Stroman from what I understand.

Isn’t this really a smart move . Starting five solid. Lockdown bullpen. Defensive minded coach.

[Hubs]

17 hours ago, Angels 1961 said:

Cleveland would not want Anderson and who replaces Rengifo?

Cleveland might want a lefty who is cost controlled for the back end of their rotation. We'd likely sign Anderson or Rosario to one year deals to replace Rengifo in 2024 and in 2025 hope Kyren Paris is ready to be a big leaguer.

[Ochocinco!]

Going off of Chucks thought, on the surface it may not make a lot of sense but a Stroman, Hader, Duvall off-season isn’t entirely terrible. Stroman can probably be had for 2-3 years, Hader solidifies an iffy bullpen and worst case Hader can be dumped at any time, some contender would take him if we felt the need to get off his salary. Topping that off with Duvall who Murray has mentioned for us before with maybe another 1yr vet bat keeps us competitive which is clearly what Arte wants without breaking the bank 

[EdmontonAngelsFan]

 

[jsnpritchett]

The signing we've all been waiting for.

 

[Angels 1961]

13 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

The signing we've all been waiting for.

 

Were Angels in on Smith?

[jsnpritchett]

1 minute ago, Angels 1961 said:

Were Angels in on Smith?

Bowman said the Angels were in the lead, Heyman said the Angels were in the final four, but Chuck's source said the Angels were never serious about him.

[James]

2 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

Were Angels in on Smith?

[EdmontonAngelsFan]

1 minute ago, jsnpritchett said:

Bowman said the Angels were in the lead, Heyman said the Angels were in the final four, but Chuck's source said the Angels were never serious about him.

Boob Nightengale said we we're Top 10 at best.

[Erstad Grit]

37 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

The signing we've all been waiting for.

 

Honestly, I actually wanted him. 

[Tank]

In case you really are interested,

Pitch values are just the run expectancy on a particular pitch over the course of a season, so the biggest sample size possible works best -- such as full season stats.  Pitch Value isn't at all predictive, it's like ERA in that it tells you "what happened" not "why" -- the "why" is more important than the "what" and you can't base an opinion simply on pitch values IMO.

But what has basically happened is that as his FB has gotten weaker, not only has his FB become less effective, everything else has too.  Whether it's reversible or not, I don't know, but he's looking like he's in a Jered Weaver-ish form of decline.  Hitters are chasing pitches out of the zone a lot less and making contact at pitches in the zones better than ever before -- over 90% last year.  His overall contact rates have gone from 63.3% in 20, to 66.1% in 21, to 72.1% in 22, to finally 77% last season. 

Anyway, the argument with him has always been that he was successful without an overpowering FB, but that has been becoming less and less true. He has been using his cutter more, so he's been trying to compensate for the diminishing velocity by moving off his curveball which has gone from a plus pitch to a negative one.  To date he hasn't really seen as noticeable drop in the velocity of his other pitches, so he's got room to tinker.

I didn't really watch a lot of Cleveland games last season, I tend to look at stats to support what I think my eyes are seeing and that's not the case here -- no idea if there was some underlying condition or whatever, but based purely on the trajectory he's been on he's not looking like a good investment long term.

-------------------------------------------

@Inside Pitch @Docwaukee

an honest question for you . . . 

what made pitchers like tommy john, john tudor, frank tanana, greg maddox, and others so effective? none of them had an upper echelon fastball (tanana being the exception before he injured his arm). and if what made them effective throwing an 85 mph heater worked then, can it still work today?

a discussion where someone like bieber has his fastball drop from 95-97 to 93-95 makes me wonder about this a lot, and knowing that soft-tossers like those i mentioned found a fair amount of success, is a 2-4 mph drop really that much of a worrisome thing when guys who pitched 10 mph less than that were successful?

 

Edited January 8 by Tank

[jsnpritchett]

4 minutes ago, Erstad Grit said:

Honestly, I actually wanted him. 

[totdprods]

29 minutes ago, Ochocinco! said:

Going off of Chucks thought, on the surface it may not make a lot of sense but a Stroman, Hader, Duvall off-season isn’t entirely terrible

Rotation: Stroman, Sandoval, Canning, Detmers, Anderson, with Silseth, Daniel, Bachman, Kochanowicz

Bullpen: Hader, Estevez, Garcia, Cimber, Herget, Suarez, Plesac, Soriano/Joyce/rotating young gun spot, with Kolarek, Wantz, Caceres, Mederos, Ingram

Lineup: O’Hoppe C, Schanuel 1B, Drury 2B, Neto SS, Rendon 3B, Ward LF, Trout CF, Moniak RF, Rengifo, Duvall, Adell, Thaiss, Soto, with Mejia, Paris, Adams, Rivas, Stefanic, Calhoun, White, Marisnick

Really not that bad of a team, IMO. In no way is a guaranteed contender or even a winning team, but really well-rounded and one of those teams where if things broke right and folks stayed healthy it could win 90+.

[Erstad Grit]

12 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

He was part of the Chapman trade.

He mashed in A's AAA team with a ridiculous OPS. 

I wanted him and ironically Mejia, who we did sign, as invite guys.  

[Erstad Grit]

12 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Rotation: Stroman, Sandoval, Canning, Detmers, Anderson, with Silseth, Daniel, Bachman, Kochanowicz

Bullpen: Hader, Estevez, Garcia, Cimber, Herget, Suarez, Plesac, Soriano/Joyce/rotating young gun spot, with Kolarek, Wantz, Caceres, Mederos, Ingram

Lineup: O’Hoppe C, Schanuel 1B, Drury 2B, Neto SS, Rendon 3B, Ward LF, Trout CF, Moniak RF, Rengifo, Duvall, Adell, Thaiss, Soto, with Mejia, Paris, Adams, Rivas, Stefanic, Calhoun, White, Marisnick

Really not that bad of a team, IMO. In no way is a guaranteed contender or even a winning team, but really well-rounded and one of those teams where if things broke right and folks stayed healthy it could win 90+.

[Inside Pitch]

35 minutes ago, Tank said:

In case you really are interested,

Pitch values are just the run expectancy on a particular pitch over the course of a season, so the biggest sample size possible works best -- such as full season stats.  Pitch Value isn't at all predictive, it's like ERA in that it tells you "what happened" not "why" -- the "why" is more important than the "what" and you can't base an opinion simply on pitch values IMO.

But what has basically happened is that as his FB has gotten weaker, not only has his FB become less effective, everything else has too.  Whether it's reversible or not, I don't know, but he's looking like he's in a Jered Weaver-ish form of decline.  Hitters are chasing pitches out of the zone a lot less and making contact at pitches in the zones better than ever before -- over 90% last year.  His overall contact rates have gone from 63.3% in 20, to 66.1% in 21, to 72.1% in 22, to finally 77% last season. 

Anyway, the argument with him has always been that he was successful without an overpowering FB, but that has been becoming less and less true. He has been using his cutter more, so he's been trying to compensate for the diminishing velocity by moving off his curveball which has gone from a plus pitch to a negative one.  To date he hasn't really seen as noticeable drop in the velocity of his other pitches, so he's got room to tinker.

I didn't really watch a lot of Cleveland games last season, I tend to look at stats to support what I think my eyes are seeing and that's not the case here -- no idea if there was some underlying condition or whatever, but based purely on the trajectory he's been on he's not looking like a good investment long term.

-------------------------------------------

@Inside Pitch @Docwaukee

an honest question for you . . . 

what made pitchers like tommy john, john tudor, frank tanana, greg maddox, and others so effective? none of them had an upper echelon fastball (tanana being the exception before he injured his arm). and if what made them effective throwing an 85 mph heater worked then, can it still work today?

a discussion where someone like bieber has his fastball drop from 95-97 to 93-95 makes me wonder about this a lot, and knowing that soft-tossers like those i mentioned found a fair amount of success, is a 2-4 mph drop really that much of a worrisome thing?

Beiber is down to 90-91, but to answer your question, some of it is just the evolution of the game. 

Check this chart out...

The average FB has continued to go up and prior to 2002 it was even lower, but in the case of guys you mentioned most of them were the exception to the rule.  Tudor's change ups were said to be a thing of beauty -- he was the king of soft contact.  Tommy John's curveball was said to be second only to Burt Blyleven's prior to his TJ but he like Tanana just guiled their way through lineups -- all three morphed into "cagey lefties" and Tudor like Jaime Moyer didn't really come into his own until after he turned 30.  

Greg Maddox was just in a class of his own. The combination of pin-point control, soft contact and ability to induce ground balls was nuts.   My Dad charted his pitches once just for shits and giggles using a sheet paper where he put the speed and location in every box and he went 67 pitches before he repeated the exact same speed and location.  He'd go back into the same spot or throw the same speed but there was always a wrinkle.

When push comes to shove, I think it's just the reality that players are just much better conditioned than they used to be -- bigger, stronger.  Balls that used to die in the OF go out etc.  The margin for error has become smaller and as such, velocity has become more important.

[Angel Oracle]

2 hours ago, BTH said:

I think the most relevant info in that article is:

“The Giants, Red Sox, Cubs and Angels have been tabbed by sources as the finalists for Imanaga”

But Murray said the Angels aren’t really in on Imanaga.

Giants ballpark fits Imanaga like a sleeve.   Will cut down on his gopher ball potential.