Diagnosing this franchise

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, The Ghost of Bob Starr said:

Watch the A’s move to Vegas and begin to dominate.  

The FO and scouting are there.   Just need increased attendance and tv revenues, and then ownership not afraid to spend any money.

[AngelsMetsWS]

As went to the playoffs three straight years since the Angels last appearance. They do,OK for a small market team. 

[Duren, Duren]

"There are no problems, only solutions.," Said by former mayor of Montreal  Jean Drapeau who  was instrumental in  building a subway, bringing a World's Fair and Olympics and getting the  Montreal Expos as an expansion team to his city. 

If the leadership is there from the top down and the team has solidarity, builds confidence and plays as a unit they may yet turn things around. 

However, Drapeau also said "the city have as much chance of losing money on the Olympics as a man has of having a baby." Well, they lost hundreds of millions because of that monstrous stadium ,so  make of that what you will. 

[Angel Oracle]

Turner Field became a much better baseball stadium after Atlanta’s Olympics, than the Montreal Monstrosity became.

Main issue was being in a questionable part of Atlanta, hence the move to Triust Field after just 20+ years at Turner Field.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Angel Oracle

[REDneck]

I have not read thru the thread...but it's something.

Could it be Anaheim?  Admittedly I have not been to the Big A in many years.

Anaheim and the stadium really sounds sterile to me...no life, no energy.

So Cal in general is pretty chill, but that stadium just sitting out there of the 57 in a parking lot, it just doesn't move it for me. Then you have your big money guys living in Newport or somewhere on the beach....Who the hell wants to come to Anaheim and a crappy stadium to play baseball?

It's not a gritty location to play ball compared to the Bronx or the South side of Boston or even Chavez ravine.

I will get grilled for this and that's fine. What I really think is that there is a dysfunctional philosophical issue with this organization. Ranging from how they play baseball to where they play baseball.

[REDneck]

5 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

What's wrong with the Angels franchise?

It can't just be bad luck, because variations of the same shit happens every year.

Some (@Stradling) poo-poo the superstitious idea of a curse, yet at the same time that aptly explains the phenomena ("If there's smoke, there's fire").

This year really looked differently. As recently as just a couple weeks ago, it looked like the Angels were on the way up: 41-33, eight games over .500. After a brief dip, then won three out of four games and were back to 44-37 -- and that was just a week ago. 

After tonight's game they'll be 45-43, losing 10 of the last 14 games. Trout is out for the next 1-2 months, Ohtani got bombed and hurt and Rendon is hurt again -- all within a 24 hour period. This is in the same year that their two top rookies both got hurt and missed a month or more.

So how do you explain the yearly shit-fest that is the Angels?

And please, don't rationalize. This is a team that hasn't reached the postseason in nine years or had a winning season in eight. It is quite possibly the worst franchise in MLB, despite having two generational talents. No team has gone as long without a postseason berth or winning season. This franchise is floundering and simply isn't improving.

But next year, right? Haven't we been saying that for the last half decade or more?

Unfortunately I can't disagree with any of this.

[REDneck]

5 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

AIDS

What is really going on in that locker room?

[REDneck]

4 hours ago, AngelsFaninGA said:

Not enough fiber in the team diet

Well shit now they're lacking protein as well without fish.

[REDneck]

4 hours ago, Blarg said:

I wish @Angelsjunky would leave the diagnosis up to the real professionals. 

We haven't been the same since we were magical...unless you count the 6 years prior.

[REDneck]

3 hours ago, cals said:

Ok I have an idea.  And don’t poo poo the idea right from the start.  But how about we all agree to follow a non-shitty team and we joined their message board together and just acted like we were there all along?

Not brilliant!

[REDneck]

3 hours ago, Swordsman78 said:

Basically the halos will need to plan for the year Rendins contract goes away.   That should be the target year to make a playoff run.   All decisions regarding FA and draftees should be made with that year in mind.

 

Oh the devolution of the Angels fan!

Now we have to wait a few more years, until Rendon is gone!

 

 

[steveuk]

4 hours ago, REDneck said:

Oh the devolution of the Angels fan!

Now we have to wait a few more years, until Rendon is gone!

 

 

And Rendon is heading to the IL again. 

[Dtwncbad]

It’s the stadium.  And climate change.

[BTH]

I truly believe the issues this year are on the manager and coaching staff.

The team's talent on paper is too good to have had these issues. The RISP struggles are inexplicable.

There has to be something deeper going on. It can't just be bad luck. Bad luck is Rendon getting hit by a pitch in the wrist, coming back, and then fouling a ball off himself and getting hurt again.

[Blarg]

26 minutes ago, Trendon said:

I truly believe the issues this year are on the manager and coaching staff.

Much as I'd like to pawn this off on the coaching staff, who are not innocent in the loss column, the talent level the Angels are fielding doesn't match their competition.

Once O'Hoppe went down the catching value dropped immensely, Wallach is not good at all.

Once Neto went down the SS defense went down immensely, Fletcher is not a SS and can't hit.

Once Ushela went down the 3rd base defense and offense went down the tubes, Rendon has never been a factor this season.

Drury went down and offense went down, Rengifo can handle defense but his bat was left somewhere between Spring training and his home. 

1st base only had a brief moment of defensive stability but Walsh was washed up at the plate. Nevin keeps putting players out of position at first and needs to just commit to Moustakas from here on out regardless of pitching matchups.

And I haven't even gotten out of the infield when it comes to defense and offense liabilities.

So, if the Angels had a committed player at each position with only rest days instead of IL weeks and months, then I think I'd be ripping Nevin more and I'm not quiet about how much I don't like his managing as is. But real talent just isn't being fielded, it's in P.T. 

[BTH]

13 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Much as I'd like to pawn this off on the coaching staff, who are not innocent in the loss column, the talent level the Angels are fielding doesn't match their competition.

Once O'Hoppe went down the catching value dropped immensely, Wallach is not good at all.

Once Neto went down the SS defense went down immensely, Fletcher is not a SS and can't hit.

Once Ushela went down the 3rd base defense and offense went down the tubes, Rendon has never been a factor this season.

Drury went down and offense went down, Rengifo can handle defense but his bat was left somewhere between Spring training and his home. 

1st base only had a brief moment of defensive stability but Walsh was washed up at the plate. Nevin keeps putting players out of position at first and needs to just commit to Moustakas from here on out regardless of pitching matchups.

And I haven't even gotten out of the infield when it comes to defense and offense liabilities.

So, if the Angels had a committed player at each position with only rest days instead of IL weeks and months, then I think I'd be ripping Nevin more and I'm not quiet about how much I don't like his managing as is. But real talent just isn't being fielded, it's in P.T. 

Real talent was being fielded until mid-June, when everyone started to get hurt. Think about all the blown winnable games from April-June. If they had built up those wins like they should've, it'd be easier to survive now.

And as injured as they are, they still should have a competent team out there. Instead, they've lost 10 of 14.

Everyone in the rotation is healthy and everyone but Moore is healthy in the pen. (Not counting Suarez, who was awful and coming out of the rotation anyway,  and Joyce, since he was only up for a handful of games)

[Hubs]

30 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Much as I'd like to pawn this off on the coaching staff, who are not innocent in the loss column, the talent level the Angels are fielding doesn't match their competition.

Once O'Hoppe went down the catching value dropped immensely, Wallach is not good at all.

Once Neto went down the SS defense went down immensely, Fletcher is not a SS and can't hit.

Once Ushela went down the 3rd base defense and offense went down the tubes, Rendon has never been a factor this season.

Drury went down and offense went down, Rengifo can handle defense but his bat was left somewhere between Spring training and his home. 

1st base only had a brief moment of defensive stability but Walsh was washed up at the plate. Nevin keeps putting players out of position at first and needs to just commit to Moustakas from here on out regardless of pitching matchups.

And I haven't even gotten out of the infield when it comes to defense and offense liabilities.

So, if the Angels had a committed player at each position with only rest days instead of IL weeks and months, then I think I'd be ripping Nevin more and I'm not quiet about how much I don't like his managing as is. But real talent just isn't being fielded, it's in P.T. 

1) Agreed on O'Hoppe. The Pitching staff worked much better under O'Hoppe but he was used too much in April. I think Thaiss has proven he can be a regular catcher, and he is hitting in the majors finally, so I have no problem with the O'Hoppe Thaiss 60/40 or 70/30 share going forward. Thaiss can also play a good first and so he can eventually take that role.

2) This is hugely understated. Neto came in a saved the year, and the record with Neto had a 31-24 in games played this year, similar record in starts.  29-23.

They are 14-19 in games he didn't play. Including a 6-13 record since he went down.

3) Rendon isn't healthy, and isn't hitting like he used to. His defense has been passable, though I know you don't agree. Escobar is a passable replacement for Urshela. They still need a RH first baseman to platoon with Moustakas if Drury is going to be the main guy at 2nd.

4) Rengifo has a good game here or there, but has struggled for the vast majority of the season. They have a good record in his starts though, somehow. 

Lineup for the vast majority of July (without Trout) should be (against right-handed pitchers)

1. Moniak CF

2. Neto SS

3. Ohtani DH

4. Drury 2B

5. Rendon 3B

6. Moustakas 1B

7. Adell LF/RF

8. Ward/Renfroe RF

9. Thaiss C

 

Against Lefties

1. Neto SS

2. Ohtani DH

3. Drury 2B

4. Rendon 3B

5. Renfore 1B

6. Adell LF

7. Ward RF

8. Wallach C

9. Moniak CF

 

 

 

 

[Chuck]

 

[fan_since79]

6 hours ago, steveuk said:

And Rendon is heading to the IL again. 

For a simple contusion?!

I'm so over him. How many more years are we stuck with him?

[gurn67]

You build a winning organization through the farm system. Once you have a roster filled with quality players, and depth, then you can add a few high priced free agents to hopefully get you a championship. Look at the teams that have been consistently competing for a championship lately. That's the way its been done, other than the Rays that can skip the free agency part because their scouting, and development are unbelievable. 

I've gotten to the point where if the Angels are going to win around 75 games letting the kids play, then fine. Trade Ohtani. Go into a full rebuild. Ask Trout if he's willing to go through that. If not, find out who he would waive his no trade to. They're stuck with Rendon. The only way they're getting rid of that IL machine is by DFA'ng him. Trade anyone else who's a free agent at the end of the season. Build around the young talent.

[greginpsca]

42 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

 

Victor was spot on in his assessment of the teams lack of situational hitting, the Home Run being the end all to their hitting philosophy.

[DMVol]

1 hour ago, Hubs said:

Against Lefties

1. Neto SS

2. Ohtani DH

3. Drury 2B

4. Rendon 3B

5. Renfore 1B

6. Adell LF

7. Ward RF

8. Wallach C

9. Moniak CF

I'd probably keep Ward in LF and play Adell in RF.....I think Adell has played a little more RF than LF in the minors 

[Hubs]

2 minutes ago, DMVol said:

I'd probably keep Ward in LF and play Adell in RF.....I think Adell has played a little more RF than LF in the minors 

Adell had 830.1 innings in LF and 871 innings in RF, this year its basically split between the two with half as many starts in CF too...

In the minors, he's actually played more CF than anywhere else, 1114 innings. 

and Ward was a better hitter last year when he primarily played RF....shouldn't matter, but..

 

[Hubs]

18 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

Which is partially why I want them to trade Ohtani. You just know that the $650M contract will start looking bad a year or two in.

I wish the Angels would go for a "Moneyball Plus" approach: moneyball, but keep the very best homegrown guys.

Oh wait, that's the Rays.

As Revolutionary as a player as Ohtani is, I doubt significantly he will beat the previous contract high by 50%.

Aaron Judge is the record for position players at $40 AAV, and Trout is the record for total deal at $426.5/12

Verlander/Scherzer is the record for pitchers at $43.33 AAV and Cole is the record for total deal at $324/9

 

So, Ohtani might get $500+ but not $650. I could see him getting $45 a year at 12 years... or as much as $50 over 10 years as the most.

 

[Angelsjunky]

3 minutes ago, Hubs said:

As Revolutionary as a player as Ohtani is, I doubt significantly he will beat the previous contract high by 50%.

Aaron Judge is the record for position players at $40 AAV, and Trout is the record for total deal at $426.5/12

Verlander/Scherzer is the record for pitchers at $43.33 AAV and Cole is the record for total deal at $324/9

 

So, Ohtani might get $500+ but not $650. I could see him getting $45 a year at 12 years... or as much as $50 over 10 years as the most.

 

I think we're going to be shocked and awed at the bidding war and see $50M AAV as the low-end. Could be wrong, of course.

I also wouldn't be surprised if someone offers him something like 3/$200M or 4/$250M.