Adellgate (Adell unhappy?)

[cals]

39 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

[AngelsLakersFan]

22 hours ago, Second Base said:

Every player is responsible for his own career. That's the way it works. What was Jo supposed to do? "Oh, uh sorry Mr. Eppler, I'm not ready for my dreams to come true. Promote somebody else." 

Was it a mistake on Billy's part? Yeah. It was. But Billy, nor Perry are responsible for Jo Adell sucking in the majors. That's on Jo, and no one else. 

Maybe the Angels need to start taking responsibility for their prospects careers then...

[Angelsfan1984]

So all 21 year olds are supposed to come in and mash, just because the franchise has no other options on the big league club? 
 

makes total sense that it’s on him. If you’re not mike trout, you suck. Get gooder idoit

[Lazorko Saves]

For the "It's the Angels player development and management that are at fault for busted prospects" crowd, go look up Brandon Wood, Dallas McPherson, etc, on baseball-reference.com

You'll see a parade of teams who did the "we can fix him" thing and failed.  Wood went to the Pirates, Rockies, Orioles, and Royals.  McPherson went to the Marlins, A's, White Sox, and Pirates.  No success anywhere.

Even Roberto Baldoquin has the Cardinals thinking "they can fix him".  I would bet they won't.

Sometimes the player just can't make the adjustments to play at the top level.  No matter how much you "develop" him.

 

[Blarg]

McPherson wasn't a developmental problem, it was a back problem that sidelined his career. 

[Second Base]

30 minutes ago, Blarg said:

McPherson wasn't a developmental problem, it was a back problem that sidelined his career. 

And depending on how you classify it, Wood's was a legitimate mental health issue. 

[Docwaukee]

28 minutes ago, Lazorko Saves said:

For the "It's the Angels player development and management that are at fault for busted prospects" crowd, go look up Brandon Wood, Dallas McPherson, etc, on baseball-reference.com

You'll see a parade of teams who did the "we can fix him" thing and failed.  Wood went to the Pirates, Rockies, Orioles, and Royals.  McPherson went to the Marlins, A's, White Sox, and Pirates.  No success anywhere.

Even Roberto Baldoquin has the Cardinals thinking "they can fix him".  I would bet they won't.

Sometimes the player just can't make the adjustments to play at the top level.  No matter how much you "develop" him.

 

The Angels haven't been good at developing players for a long time.  

Maybe Adell can't be developed.  Maybe he just doesn't have it.  But calling him up at 21 when they did thinking that they've put him in a position to succeed was ridiculous.  If they thought he was prepared enough to do well then there should absolutely be criticism for those that thought that.  

I'm not saying you let a guy sit in the minors till he's 24 or 25 and ready to be a finished product at the major league level.  And I'm fine with mildly aggressive but that was just plain dumb and has created an unclear path for the player.  

It took about two seconds to make some of his fundamental flaws utterly obvious.  

[Jay]

My God you guys are still talking about this. 

[Docwaukee]

18 minutes ago, Jay said:

My God you guys are still talking about this. 

what Angel's baseball stuff would you like to discuss?  

[Dtwncbad]

1 hour ago, Blarg said:

McPherson wasn't a developmental problem, it was a back problem that sidelined his career. 

And if people would actually bother to look up McPherson’s numbers in the bigs, he was more than fine.  That production (even with his wrecked back) would have him in a major league lineup everyday.

[Taylor]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

My God you guys are still talking about this. 

[ThisismineScios]

22 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

the one part I just can't agree with.  The rest of what you mentioned is fine.  If we could have gotten Ohoppe for Adell, it would have happened.  And it's because of the floor.  Adell's entire foundation is jacked right now and they've got a year to fix it.  

Why I tried to clarify. Not equal value, but I think there is a trade to be made for more than just a washed up prospect. But I do not think that they will. 

[oldguy]

23 hours ago, Stradling said:

I really like Dante Bichette. Trading him for Dave Parker is the worst trade this team has made. Maybe the second worst (Vernon Wells) 

We should do a whole another thread on worst Halos trades.  Trading Carney Lansford would be near the top of my list.

[Inside Pitch]

On 1/15/2023 at 10:02 AM, Stradling said:

I really like Dante Bichette. Trading him for Dave Parker is the worst trade this team has made. Maybe the second worst (Vernon Wells) 

Dante Bichette is one of the reasons I started looking at stats a lot harder.  Needless to say his career WAR being under 10 (5.7 bWAR!), says it all. 

Coors Field FTW!

[Stradling]

36 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Dante Bichette is one of the reasons I started looking at stats a lot harder.  Needless to say his career WAR being under 10 (5.7 bWAR!), says it all. 

Coors Field FTW!

My counter argument to that is 40 year old Dave Parker. 

[Inside Pitch]

8 minutes ago, Stradling said:

My counter argument to that is 40 year old Dave Parker. 

Sure, the trade was crap and I liked Bichette -- my goal at the time was to prove he was better than his detractors were making him out to be.  But he's one of those guys that made me realize raw numbers, counting stats, and the traditional triple slash numbers were kinda empty or rather, devoid of context.

[Angelsjunky]

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but Dante Bichette may be the most over-inflated player in baseball history - in terms of his conventional stats relative to his actual ability. Coors + late 90s. His career triple slash of .299/.336/.499 yielded a 104 wRC+. Still a pretty good player, of course.

 

[Angelsjunky]

15 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

The Angels haven't been good at developing players for a long time.  

Maybe Adell can't be developed.  Maybe he just doesn't have it.  But calling him up at 21 when they did thinking that they've put him in a position to succeed was ridiculous.  If they thought he was prepared enough to do well then there should absolutely be criticism for those that thought that.  

I'm not saying you let a guy sit in the minors till he's 24 or 25 and ready to be a finished product at the major league level.  And I'm fine with mildly aggressive but that was just plain dumb and has created an unclear path for the player.  

It took about two seconds to make some of his fundamental flaws utterly obvious.  

I think what bums me out the most is imagining the alternate reality in which Adell wasn't called up in 2020, and instead worked on his defense and plate discipline, and then spend 2021 in AAA honing his craft. He might have been reasonably good this year, with 2022 being his rookie year.

As a general rule, it is much better to be "over-ripe" than "under-cooked."

[Second Base]

18 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Maybe the Angels need to start taking responsibility for their prospects careers then...

So rather than freedom and individual control over ones own path, you feel it's necessary to institutionalize people's own career and control their progress?

Man, I bet you Stalin would've been tight. 

[Taylor]

1 minute ago, Second Base said:

So rather than freedom and individual control over ones own path, you feel it's necessary to institutionalize people's own career and control their progress?

Man, I bet you Stalin would've been tight. 

Lol. I'm pretty sure in the future you become dtwncbad. Just like cals will become Blarg.

[Second Base]

1 minute ago, Angelsjunky said:

I think what bums me out the most is imagining the alternate reality in which Adell wasn't called up in 2020, and instead worked on his defense and plate discipline, and then spend 2021 in AAA honing his craft. He might have been reasonably good this year, with 2022 being his rookie year.

As a general rule, it is much better to be "over-ripe" than "under-cooked."

How often do we see prospects that are "over-ripe" though? I mean looking back...Kendrys Morales, Kole Calhoun and Mike Trout are the only ones I can think of in recent Angels history. 

 

[Second Base]

Just now, Taylor said:

Lol. I'm pretty sure in the future you become dtwncbad. Just like cals will become Blarg.

Do you feel it's necessary for the Angels to be the first organization to institutionalize prospect development? Meaning rather than provide resources for them to improve how they see fit, you will force they're. Practice habits, their workout habits, their nutrition, their downtime? 

Are you sure that's a path you want to go down?

[Angelsfan1984]

42 minutes ago, Second Base said:

So rather than freedom and individual control over ones own path, you feel it's necessary to institutionalize people's own career and control their progress?

Man, I bet you Stalin would've been tight. 

I cannot believe you were a scout. How can you possibly tell me or anyone else that throwing a kid out there when he’s not ready given how you’ve developed him thus far is on him. 
 

what company on earth is going to say, here new employee with zero experience, I’m going to need you to run the day to day operations…don’t worry, you’ll get trained after you’ve failed across the board and we blame the problems on you. 

[Angelsfan1984]

For gods sake he was being played in center and they brought him up to play left. Granted it should be easier athletically, you have just shifted his entire learning experience with expectations for him to not only stay afloat but also thrive. 
 

the adjustments are on adell, the lack of preparation is on the organization. As an employee of the angels, they should put their employee in the best position to succeed. Not set him up to sink. 

[Taylor]

44 minutes ago, Second Base said:

Do you feel it's necessary for the Angels to be the first organization to institutionalize prospect development? Meaning rather than provide resources for them to improve how they see fit, you will force they're. Practice habits, their workout habits, their nutrition, their downtime? 

Are you sure that's a path you want to go down?

Is that what anyone is arguing for? I haven't seen anybody on AngelsWin make that argument.

From my perspective you're taking the leap from "the Angels should take some responsibility for their prospects' success" to "the Angels org should be Soviet Russia."