The Padres doing cool things is because they have a deep farm

[UndertheHalo]

Maybe someday the Angels will have this.  It’s not going to happen ever if they trade half of their top 10 every time they have a chance to get a player.    
 

Spend your billions Arturo ! Get yourself a dang ring ! 

Edited December 28, 2020 by UndertheHalo

[mmc]

Even if the Angels didn't trade their prospects, to get a farm like the Padres have you still need both several years of picking at the top of the draft (which won't happen as long as we have Trout) and fire sales which we won't do as we're trying to compete as well.  A good farm is needed but we can't realistically expect to have one as deep as SD's with how the major league team is constructed.

[UndertheHalo]

They can draft well and horde prospects.  The Dodgers never have high picks.  Their farm is full of talent and deep. 

[Pancake Bear]

Last March, mlb.com ranked the top farm systems. The top three were (1) the Rays, (2) the Padres, and (3) the Dodgers. They represent three methods for getting a top set of prospects.

You can suck more than every other team for a long time (like the Padres), or be cheaper than every other team (like the Rays), or be smarter than every other team (like the Dodgers).

For the first, mmc is correct:

6 minutes ago, mmc said:

won't happen as long as we have Trout

The second, fortunately, is not an option because Arte wants to win and is willing to spend for it.

Sadly, none of the Angels management (whether under Reagins, Dipoto, or Eppler) has shown themselves to be anything above average in running a franchise. Maybe that changes with Minasian, but smart money says it's unlikely. 

[UndertheHalo]

9 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

Last March, mlb.com ranked the top farm systems. The top three were (1) the Rays, (2) the Padres, and (3) the Dodgers. They represent three methods for getting a top set of prospects.

You can suck more than every other team for a long time (like the Padres), or be cheaper than every other team (like the Rays), or be smarter than every other team (like the Dodgers).

For the first, mmc is correct:

The second, fortunately, is not an option because Arte wants to win and is willing to spend for it.

Sadly, none of the Angels management (whether under Reagins, Dipoto, or Eppler) has shown themselves to be anything above average in running a franchise. Maybe that changes with Minasian, but smart money says it's unlikely. 

Listen, this is an aspirational post. 

[Second Base]

So don't think that gets to the root of the issue. The Padres are able to do this because they have a badass GM, that built the best scouting department in baseball. They acquire young players and prospects before they break out, because these guys know what they're doing. Scouting built the best farm system in baseball history, not analytics. 

Prellar (and his scouting department headed by Logan White who was in the running for Angels GM) used high draft picks, and acquired young talent via trade, and saw value where others couldn't. And that's why they're able to do this. 

Minasian was a good choice for GM, hopefully he can do the same thing minus the high draft picks. 

[Angelsjunky]

45 minutes ago, mmc said:

Even if the Angels didn't trade their prospects, to get a farm like the Padres have you still need both several years of picking at the top of the draft (which won't happen as long as we have Trout) and fire sales which we won't do as we're trying to compete as well.  A good farm is needed but we can't realistically expect to have one as deep as SD's with how the major league team is constructed.

This isn't really true, though. Sure, its nice to get some top picks--and the Astros are a good example of a team that benefited from some shitty years--but the Padres haven't overly benefited (yet) from good picks, and they only had one year recently where they got a top 5 pick. Last few years:

2020: 8th overall (Robert Hassell), 34th (Justin Lange)

2019: 6th (CJ Abrams)

2018: 7th (Ryan Weathers), 38th (Xavier Edwards)

2017: 3rd (Mackenzie Gore)

2016: 8th (Cal Quantrill), 24th (Hudson Potts), 25th (Eric Lauer)

2015: No first rounders

2014: 13th (Trea Turner)

The jury is still out on most of those guys, and none of them figured into the Snell trade. For those prospects, here is how the Padres acquired them:

Luis Patino: 2016 amateur free agent (international scouting)

Francisco Mejia: 2012 amateur free agent

Blake Hunt: 2017 2nd rounder

Cole Wilcox: 2020 3rd rounder

So the top prize in that package was an international signing, as was Mejia. The other two were 2nd-to-3rd rounders. The point being, none of them were 1st round draft picks, and more ot the point: more than high 1st round picks, a good farm requires good scouting, in particular international and "deep" scouting.

[Junkballer]

54 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

Last March, mlb.com ranked the top farm systems. The top three were (1) the Rays, (2) the Padres, and (3) the Dodgers. They represent three methods for getting a top set of prospects.

You can suck more than every other team for a long time (like the Padres), or be cheaper than every other team (like the Rays), or be smarter than every other team (like the Dodgers).

 

Not to say that the Dodgers havent done an outstanding job with their farm in the Freidman era, but it deserves note that they didnt have to give up many prospects when unloading several very bad contracts.  They spent their way through it, going into the CBT in an unprecedented way for several years.  Just about every other team would have had to pay a steep price in farm assets to unload like that.

[Angel Oracle]

Why did Arte Moreno for so many years seem to treat scouting and development like an in law?    That is the question Arte had better have answered when he hired Minasian.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Angel Oracle

[Second Base]

11 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

This isn't really true, though. Sure, its nice to get some top picks--and the Astros are a good example of a team that benefited from some shitty years--but the Padres haven't overly benefited (yet) from good picks, and they only had one year recently where they got a top 5 pick. Last few years:

2020: 8th overall (Robert Hassell), 34th (Justin Lange)

2019: 6th (CJ Abrams)

2018: 7th (Ryan Weathers), 38th (Xavier Edwards)

2017: 3rd (Mackenzie Gore)

2016: 8th (Cal Quantrill), 24th (Hudson Potts), 25th (Eric Lauer)

2015: No first rounders

2014: 13th (Trea Turner)

The jury is still out on most of those guys, and none of them figured into the Snell trade. For those prospects, here is how the Padres acquired them:

Luis Patino: 2016 amateur free agent (international scouting)

Francisco Mejia: 2012 amateur free agent

Blake Hunt: 2017 2nd rounder

Cole Wilcox: 2020 3rd rounder

So the top prize in that package was an international signing, as was Mejia. The other two were 2nd-to-3rd rounders. The point being, none of them were 1st round draft picks, and more ot the point: more than high 1st round picks, a good farm requires good scouting, in particular international and "deep" scouting.

Logan White is very good at his job.

[Redondo]

57 minutes ago, Second Base said:

Logan White is very good at his job.

AO was touting him as a good GM to hire.

[Second Base]

6 minutes ago, Redondo said:

AO was touting him as a good GM to hire.

I know he's been touted as the scouting guru. Minasian wasn't so bad at it himself as I understand. Maybe Perry is a better communicator. Then again, Eppler was one a decent scout before he started leaning heavily toward the analytical side and always was an excellent communicator. Hard to know why some guys get hired and some don't. 

[floplag]

Im honestly kind of over this narrative.
Yes, they had a deep farm, but what did they have to do to get that?
Tank, be terrible for years... Was that ever an option for us?  
We could have had the top farm easily, all we had to do was trade Trout. 
MLB these days doesnt reward those that make an effort and fall short, it encourages tanking... The only organization that has managed to both win and build, is the Dogs, and for that i give respect.
I feel like all major sports do this with the automatic worst teams get first draft thing... this is logical of course but it encourages tanking.  People actually want to be last.  I think those who made the effort and fell just short should perhaps go first, then go to the bottom.  There needs to be something to reward those who dont tank. 

[gotbeer]

You have to remember all the lean years in San Diego. 

I think the bigger thing with San Diego vs the Angels, is they are realistic in their chances.  Come midseason, they know if they are out or not.  And they don't hope on a wing and a prayer like the Angels do.  They are out, they sell, even if they are good players, which they know they can't keep, and accumulate.  Where as the Angels hold onto players like Simmons and let them walk for free, and say we have the best player in baseball, we need to compete every year, till the end. 

But it's not like they don't sign either.  Machado shocked everyone when he signed there.

And now that they found lightning in a bottle in Tatis, they are going to make a good run with him.  Where as Trout may never see the playoffs.

[Angel Oracle]

I hate the 16 team post-season.

But, I wonder if that will at least minimize the tanking.

[Angel Oracle]

14 minutes ago, gotbeer said:

You have to remember all the lean years in San Diego. 

I think the bigger thing with San Diego vs the Angels, is they are realistic in their chances.  Come midseason, they know if they are out or not.  And they don't hope on a wing and a prayer like the Angels do.  They are out, they sell, even if they are good players, which they know they can't keep, and accumulate.  Where as the Angels hold onto players like Simmons and let them walk for free, and say we have the best player in baseball, we need to compete every year, till the end. 

But it's not like they don't sign either.  Machado shocked everyone when he signed there.

And now that they found lightning in a bottle in Tatis, they are going to make a good run with him.  Where as Trout may never see the playoffs.

I have to say it.   Minasian is Arte Moreno’s last chance.   If he turns out not to be the right guy, then it is time for Moreno to sell the team because he will then never get it right after four failed GM hires and many wasted years.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Angel Oracle

[eligrba]

33 minutes ago, floplag said:

Im honestly kind of over this narrative.
Yes, they had a deep farm, but what did they have to do to get that?
Tank, be terrible for years... Was that ever an option for us?  
We could have had the top farm easily, all we had to do was trade Trout. 
MLB these days doesnt reward those that make an effort and fall short, it encourages tanking... The only organization that has managed to both win and build, is the Dogs, and for that i give respect.
I feel like all major sports do this with the automatic worst teams get first draft thing... this is logical of course but it encourages tanking.  People actually want to be last.  I think those who made the effort and fell just short should perhaps go first, then go to the bottom.  There needs to be something to reward those who dont tank. 

The bottom line is that they made better decisions on players than the Angels.  The Dodgers also made better decisions than the Angels on players.  Tampa Bay also made better decisions on players than the Angels.  High draft picks help, making better choices on players helps even more, and in most cases makes a high draft pick less important.

[Angel Oracle]

6 minutes ago, eligrba said:

The bottom line is that they made better decisions on players than the Angels.  The Dodgers also made better decisions than the Angels on players.  Tampa Bay also made better decisions on players than the Angels.  High draft picks help, making better choices on players helps even more, and in most cases makes a high draft pick less important.

Scouting and development, plain and simple

[Don]

1 hour ago, floplag said:

Im honestly kind of over this narrative.
Yes, they had a deep farm, but what did they have to do to get that?
Tank, be terrible for years... Was that ever an option for us?  
We could have had the top farm easily, all we had to do was trade Trout. 
MLB these days doesnt reward those that make an effort and fall short, it encourages tanking... The only organization that has managed to both win and build, is the Dogs, and for that i give respect.
I feel like all major sports do this with the automatic worst teams get first draft thing... this is logical of course but it encourages tanking.  People actually want to be last.  I think those who made the effort and fell just short should perhaps go first, then go to the bottom.  There needs to be something to reward those who dont tank. 

I'm not sure trading Trout would have given us a great farm. Maybe a pretty good one, but not necessarily great. The thing that we haven't really brought up in this thread yet, is actual player development. Like real coaching, and training, and learning the skills necessary to succeed at the major league level. This is where the Angels have really done poorly (in addition to scouting and mismanagement). And I think it's where the Dodgers have done really well. There are some teams that seem to turn mid-level prospects or minor league castoffs into useful, if not really good, MLB players all the time (the Cardinals come to mind). Just trying to say that while tanking or depleting your major league roster is a sure fire way to acquire talent, someone still has to manage and develop that talent. It's a huge piece of the puzzle that isn't talked about enough in my opinion.   

[Dtwncbad]

You have to draft well to have a great system.  Overall, the Angels have not drafted well in the last dozen or so years.

[Revad]

6 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Why did Arte Moreno for so many years seem to treat scouting and development like an in law?    That is the question Arte had better have answered when he hired Minasian.

 

5 hours ago, Second Base said:

I know he's been touted as the scouting guru. Minasian wasn't so bad at it himself as I understand. Maybe Perry is a better communicator. Then again, Eppler was one a decent scout before he started leaning heavily toward the analytical side and always was an excellent communicator...

Maybe any communication issues are more on Arte’s side in not really hearing once a GM is hired.  In preparing for any interview I’ve always wanted to put my ideas out there in a way that resonated with organizational philosophy.  First get the job, then do what I can- but it works the other way as well.  I’ve taken jobs that seemed to allow for initiative but turned out to be the opposite.  Then when things didn’t go as well as I hoped I ended up taking the blame even though I was prevented from doing what what I was hired to do.

[southpaw]

Many of the players going back to the Cubs in the Darvish trade were international signings, something the Angels have been woefully behind in past years. In recent years, it has been better but for many years (almost a decade) we have never even been in the conversation for top international players. Hope Minasian and company can change that narrative. 

[Angel Oracle]

12 minutes ago, southpaw said:

Many of the players going back to the Cubs in the Darvish trade were international signings, something the Angels have been woefully behind in past years. In recent years, it has been better but for many years (almost a decade) we have never even been in the conversation for top international players. Hope Minasian and company can change that narrative. 

Spot on

At least they made solid in roads there under Eppler.

Now, the scouting needs to get better and unearth a Tatis Jr., Robert, Abreu, or Urias.  

Need to finally have an int’l player crack the top 5 in the system.  Ohtani doesn’t count, went straight to MLB.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Angel Oracle

[Hubs]

36 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

You have to draft well to have a great system.  Overall, the Angels have not drafted well in the last dozen or so years.

Since Bane left, really. The 2009 draft was spectacular, and that was 11 1/2 years ago, so.. But the last decade has been poor.

 

 

[Hubs]

2 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Since Bane left, really. The 2009 draft was spectacular, and that was 11 1/2 years ago, so.. But the last decade has been poor.

 

 

2010: Angels took Kaleb Cowart (18), Bedrosian (29), Chevy Clarke (30), Taylor Lindsey (38), Ryan Bolden (40) and Daniel Tillman (81) in the first, supplemental first and second rounds. Who they should've taken: Christian Yelich (23), Aaron Sanchez (34), Noah Syndergaard (39), and Nick Castellanos (44). Jedd Gyorko (59), Andrelton Simmons (70).

2011: Angels took CJ Cron (17) in the first, supplemental first and second rounds. Who they should've taken: Sonny Gray (18).

2012: Angels took no one in the first, supplemental first and second rounds. (Pujols, Wilson comp picks).

2013: Angels took Hunter Greene (59) in the second round. There weren't any substantially better or missed picks in that round or the third round.

2014: Angels took Sean Newcomb (15) in the firstround, who was an okay pick. Matt Chapman was the best pick from the first round that they could've selected (25) and Jack Flaherty went (34). They took Joe Gatto (53) in the second and could've taken Alex Verdugo (62).

2015: Angels took Taylor Ward (26). Could've taken Mike Soroka (28). Took Jam Jones (70) in the second. OK Picks.

2016: Angels took Matt Thaiss (16). Should've taken Will Smith (32). Took Brandon Marsh (60) in the second. Pete Alonso (64) went four picks later. That probably truns out to be a wash, if Marsh develops the way most think he will.

2017: Angels took Jo Adell (10) and Griffin Canning in the second (47). No one established or higher rated prospect that arguably should've been selected over either of these guys...yet.

2018: Angels took Jordyn Adams (17). Jeremiah Jackson in the second (57). No one established or higher rated prospect that arguably should've been selected over either of these guys...yet.

2019: Angels took Will Wilson (15) and Kyren Paris (55). No one established or higher rated prospect that arguably should've been selected over either of these guys...yet.