2014 HOF Vote (Angelswin Results are in!)

[Jeff Fletcher]

FYI, mine....

 

Bagwell

Bonds

Clemens

Glavine

Kent

Maddux

Piazza

Raines

Schilling

Thomas

 

If anyone happens to subscribe to the OCR...

http://t.co/ovfTtxojra

 

And you guys are going to have to stop with any sentence that makes any kind of generalization about what "the writers" think, because apparently you guys think the same way.

[Brent Maguire]

I'm shocked that Mussina had so few votes. Do writers realize that if he would have just hung around for a few more years, he would have had 300 wins?

His numbers were very good and much better than Glavine, yet he was way below Glavine in votes.

[mancini79]

FYI, mine....

 

Bagwell

Bonds

Clemens

Glavine

Kent

Maddux

Piazza

Raines

Schilling

Thomas

 

If anyone happens to subscribe to the OCR...

http://t.co/ovfTtxojra

 

And you guys are going to have to stop with any sentence that makes any kind of generalization about what "the writers" think, because apparently you guys think the same way.

 

C'mon Jeff. We all know you voted for Armando Benitez.

 

But it's OK since you put a lot of thought into it.

[Mark68]

I'm shocked that Mussina had so few votes. Do writers realize that if he would have just hung around for a few more years, he would have had 300 wins?

His numbers were very good and much better than Glavine, yet he was way below Glavine in votes.

I think "much better" is wildly overstating it. Per BB-Ref, Mussina's career WAR was 83 vs Glavine's 81 and his career ERA+ was 123, compared to Glavine's 118.

[YouthofToday]

FYI, mine....

Bagwell

Bonds

Clemens

Glavine

Kent

Maddux

Piazza

Raines

Schilling

Thomas

If anyone happens to subscribe to the OCR...

http://t.co/ovfTtxojra

And you guys are going to have to stop with any sentence that makes any kind of generalization about what "the writers" think, because apparently you guys think the same way.

Kudos on a great ballot -- seriously.

I also highly recommend subscribing to the OC Register. Great content from Jeff, Bernard Wolfson, Courtney Perkes and others.

[Jeff Fletcher]

Mussina was No 11 on my list. I would have voted for him if I could have.

I think he and Kent were most likely the most common No 11s

I hope they change it because right now I'm looking at 11 next year too. I only lost 3 this year and next year would add Pedro, Johnson and Smoltz.

[mancini79]

I agree Jeff, the 10 vote maximum is pointless. A player should not be penalized because their retirement happened to fall on stacked ballots. If a player belongs in the Hall, then writers should be able to vote for them. Some years the ballot may have only 3 worthy players, and others may have 15. It evens out in the end.

Edited January 9, 2014 by mancini79

[Brent Maguire]

I think "much better" is wildly overstating it. Per BB-Ref, Mussina's career WAR was 83 vs Glavine's 81 and his career ERA+ was 123, compared to Glavine's 118.

Fair enough.

Glavine clearly was a guy who had a uncanny ability to strand runners. I think some people are selling him short when they use his K/BB ratios and other stats that didn't paint the picture with him. He was still a great pitcher.

I guess I just think Mussina deserve a hell of a lot more credit considering he's comparable, if not better, than Glavine.

[Jeff Fletcher]

Mussina and Glavine are pretty much identical but Glavine decided to pitch 2 more years, which increased his wins and his ERA.

Still the 2 Cy youngs and the fact he did get those 300 wins is why I picked Glavine over mussina for my ballot.

[Mark68]

Mussina was No 11 on my list. I would have voted for him if I could have.

I think he and Kent were most likely the most common No 11s

I hope they change it because right now I'm looking at 11 next year too. I only lost 3 this year and next year would add Pedro, Johnson and Smoltz.

Yeah, I think the limit of ten votes is pretty pointless, especially considering that players have to get 75% to get in and they only remain on the ballot for 15 years.

 

If the Hall is going to put a time limit on eligibility, then they shouldn't be putting a numerical limit on how many can get votes.

 

I also believe that the voting should be opened to include other writers or broadcasters, not just the BBWAA.

[stormngt]

Jeff,

You completely avoided the question of the validity of voting for Morris and not Maddux. Morris pitched in the steroid era. That is a fact.

Frankly I could care less if Maddux gets in with 99, 90 or 100 percent of the vote. That is irrelevant to this conversation.

----

I would vote for Bonds and Clemens on a hypothetical HOF ballot. Instead of kicking all steroid users out I simply think KNOWN abusers should have a higher bar than players without any solid evidence of steroid use.

Bonds biggest problem is he was a terrible teammate and a complete and utter douche and an asshole to media. If he had Jack Morris' personality he would be receiving a lot more votes from BBWAA members most likely.

The sanctimonious way some see the steroid era is absolutely ridiculous. Should we exclude every player from the HOF before racial integration since those players played against artificially weaker competition?

Should we exclude everybody from the HOF that was in the greenie era as they might have used amphetamines (which I believe are just as significant as a performance enhancing drug)?

Alcohol use and DUIs are a bigger issue with society than steroids -- perhaps we should kick anybody with a DUI or known alcohol issues out of the hall then? Bye-bye Mickey Mantle -- dude gets the boot.

The HOF quickly becomes totally vacant in an ivory tower.

 

 

I am curious?  What are these years of the "steroid era?"  When did it begin?  What if you finished your career in during the era but started before it?  Would that make it ok???????

[YouthofToday]

Yeah, I think the limit of ten votes is pretty pointless, especially considering that players have to get 75% to get in and they only remain on the ballot for 15 years.

If the Hall is going to put a time limit on eligibility, then they shouldn't be putting a numerical limit on how many can get votes.

I also believe that the voting should be opened to include other writers or broadcasters, not just the BBWAA.

Does other writers include TrollDaddy, Lifetime and myself since we write about baseball?

There is no easy fix to the ballot issue. However, this is what I would do:

50% - aggregate from BBWAA

25% - aggregate front office and managerial staff

25% - fan vote

I know most will hate the fan vote idea. The Hall is its own non-profit entity that is actually struggling financially right now. They need marketing help. Allowing fans to play a role in selecting cats, even if a marginal role, would help them capture email addresses and increase their social presence. It's not like many fan ballots would be worse than some BBWAA member ballots...

[stormngt]

Cause he pitched to the store! And had winzzzzzz!

 

Oh, and was a lovely human being:

 

"Morris, the Detroit Tiger pitcher, behaved inexcusably before a recent game at Tiger Stadium when Jennifer Frey, a sportswriter intern for the Detroit Free Press, approached him to get some comments for a story on baseball's latest collusion ruling. Before Frey could get out a question, Morris, who was wearing only sliding shorts, snapped, "I don't talk to people when I'm naked, especially women, unless they're on top of me or I'm on top of them." Frey turned and left."

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1136544/index.htm

 

 

 

I kind of think those comments are funny.  Remember, these statements came during the 1980's long before sexual harassment was taken seriously.

[stormngt]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=6131472

 

read the article. Sheffield bought the "clear" from balco

 

"Sheffield was named in the Mitchell report on PED use in Major League Baseball, but Sheffield said his inclusion in the report should not cloud his candidacy for the Hall of Fame.

On page 116 of the report, Sheffield is among the players who are alleged to have purchased "the cream" and "the clear" from BALCO founder Victor Conte. On page 136, a FedEx receipt from Sheffield to BALCO found during a 2003 search of trainer Greg Anderson's condominium is referenced. On that same page, an excerpt from Sheffield's book "Inside Power" where he acknowledges receiving a bill from BALCO for "vitamins" is mentioned. His testimony before the BALCO grand jury -- he testified not knowing whether "the cream" contained steroids -- is also referenced.

"The thing about the Mitchell report is that I cringe about it because the guy who wrote the report didn't talk to me," Sheffield told the newspaper. "If he talked to me I would respect that no matter what. But I cringe on that because he didn't."

 

I guess allegation and proof are one in the same for some people.

[happybat4]

I guess allegation and proof are one in the same for some people.

It is a fact that Sheffield was on the Balco report. I guess since he denies it, it therefore makes it an allegation. I guess there are just allegations that Bonds used as well.

[HaloCory22]

Wow.

 

Dan Le Batard Show â€@LeBatardShow15m

Max penalty: BBWAA just lifetime banned me from Hall of Fame vote and won't allow me to attend a game as credentialed media for a year.

[Mark68]

Does other writers include TrollDaddy, Lifetime and myself since we write about baseball?

There is no easy fix to the ballot issue. However, this is what I would do:

50% - aggregate from BBWAA

25% - aggregate front office and managerial staff

25% - fan vote

I know most will hate the fan vote idea. The Hall is its own non-profit entity that is actually struggling financially right now. They need marketing help. Allowing fans to play a role in selecting cats, even if a marginal role, would help them capture email addresses and increase their social presence. It's not like many fan ballots would be worse than some BBWAA member ballots...

I think there should be a mixture of those who cover baseball on a full-time basis, writers, broadcasters (Vin Scully doesn't get a vote, but then again neither does Hawk...so I guess that's a wash?), and maybe even those who work for baseball sites like BP, BB Ref, etc.

[jsnpritchett]

Wow.

 

Dan Le Batard Show â€@LeBatardShow15m

Max penalty: BBWAA just lifetime banned me from Hall of Fame vote and won't allow me to attend a game as credentialed media for a year.

 

Ha.  Good.

[Mark68]

I think there should be a mixture of those who cover baseball on a full-time basis, writers, broadcasters (Vin Scully doesn't get a vote, but then again neither does Hawk...so I guess that's a wash?), and maybe even those who work for national baseball sites like BP, BB Ref, etc.

[HaloCory22]

Good? That is absolutely ridiculous. The BBWAA can shove it. Bunch of tools. The Baseball Hall of Fame should create their own committee to vote their members in.

[floplag]

Jeff..
I wonder your thoughts on the whole "rule of 10" thing...
I see a lot of writers stating it as an issue in why this guy or that didn't get in, but how would voting him 11th have helped there or justify it?  
Adding 11-15 doesn't seem to help that to me or make a lot of sense as a reason why a guy was left off a top 10 list to justify inclusion.

[YouthofToday]

Good? That is absolutely ridiculous. The BBWAA can shove it. Bunch of tools. The Baseball Hall of Fame should create their own committee to vote their members in.

Agree. This is what the NFL does.

Why does the BBWAA even have to be involved?!?!

[Docwaukee]

Fangraphs has an interesting stat called FDP-wins or fielding 'dependent'.  Not totally related to fielding, but it tries to extract out the number of wins that weren't accounted for with WAR which uses FIP.  ie guys that may or may not cosistently strand runners, hold down the running game or induce weak contact.  Glavine has the highest total of all pitchers in the last 30 years.  So his WAR certainly doesn't capture his total value. 

Edited January 9, 2014 by Dochalo

[ScottT]

I've never heard Dan Lebatard's show. I change the station as soon as i hear the annoying intro.

[Blarg]

I agree Jeff, the 10 vote maximum is pointless. A player should not be penalized because their retirement happened to fall on stacked ballots. If a player belongs in the Hall, then writers should be able to vote for them. Some years the ballot may have only 3 worthy players, and others may have 15. It evens out in the end.

It is supposed to be the Hall of Fame not the Hall of the Eleventh best pick. If some guy gets bypassed because he wasn't as good as his peers then he really isn't all thatHalk worthy. Most of the players on this years ballot were really good players but shouldn't be on the ballot. It is too inclusive at times.