My biggest complaint about Maddon is similar to my biggest complaint about Scioscia

[Angelsjunky]

The short version: He seems enamored with Proven Veterans, even when they're mediocre, and at the expense of younger players with higher upside.

While I agree that some of his calls are dubious, that's the nature of managers and it tends to even out over the course of the year (meaning, sometimes 4-D chess works). But what I don't agree with is playing guys like Mayfield and Rojas over Adell, Stefanic, and Rengifo. I know, roster considerations. But what does Stefanic have to do? And how are Mayfield and Rojas better than what we've seen from Rengifo, but without the upside?

This is not to say that specific moves - like sending Adell down - don't have validity. But Adell made sense because it seemed clear that Marsh was better enough that platooning them was hurting the team, and of course Adell has serious issues to work on. But not only is Marsh far from a polished gem, but since Adell's demotion he's given outfield starts to Mayfield (twice) and Rojas. 

In other words, it is an overall approach: Let's play the mediocre vets, because they're Proven Veterans, rather than the rough prospects with greater upside. And in Rojas' case, it isn't as much that he's a proven vet, but that he's got a feel-good story - yet one that hasn't actually borne fruit, except for a couple weeks of spring training. I mean, maybe they see something in to unlock some kind of breakthrough; Maddon was right about Ward, and we see how that's playing out. But Rojas? I just don't see it.

Meaning, if you're going to field mediocre players, I'd rather see ones with upside. We know what we have with Mayfield, and I think with Rojas. But Rengifo still has unlocked potential, and we haven't even seen Stefanic. And, of course, Adell's upside is still very good.

Anyhow.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Angelsjunky

[totdprods]

I know you know this, and it's also not totally the point, but Joe Maddon has a lot more information to work with in making these decisions, and an actual pulse on these players on a human level. And that applies to all managers. 

And we'll never know this, but for every weirdo lineup, intentional walk, player out of position, whatever that works or doesn't work, there are probably just as many subtle decisions he makes based on that information I named above that does work out that never makes it to press or to fan's consciousness. 

Really to me I don't really care or think too much about the manager. If the players like playing for him and he keeps them loose and focused and happy, he's doing his job. So much of the decisions these days are fed by computers and FO and analytics anyways. He's managing the personnel more than anything. And I think Joe does a pretty fantastic job in that regard.

[Angelsjunky]

40 minutes ago, totdprods said:

I know you know this, and it's also not totally the point, but Joe Maddon has a lot more information to work with in making these decisions, and an actual pulse on these players on a human level. And that applies to all managers. 

And we'll never know this, but for every weirdo lineup, intentional walk, player out of position, whatever that works or doesn't work, there are probably just as many subtle decisions he makes based on that information I named above that does work out that never makes it to press or to fan's consciousness. 

Really to me I don't really care or think too much about the manager. If the players like playing for him and he keeps them loose and focused and happy, he's doing his job. So much of the decisions these days are fed by computers and FO and analytics anyways. He's managing the personnel more than anything. And I think Joe does a pretty fantastic job in that regard.

Yes, good point - and really, I've said similar stuff. I actually like Maddon overall, and generally don't get caught up in analyzing every single move he makes, except for the occasional stray complaint. I think he is a smart guy and also takes into account psychology more than most, so kudos for that.

[T.G.]

47 minutes ago, totdprods said:

I know you know this, and it's also not totally the point, but Joe Maddon has a lot more information to work with in making these decisions, and an actual pulse on these players on a human level. And that applies to all managers. 

And we'll never know this, but for every weirdo lineup, intentional walk, player out of position, whatever that works or doesn't work, there are probably just as many subtle decisions he makes based on that information I named above that does work out that never makes it to press or to fan's consciousness. 

Really to me I don't really care or think too much about the manager. If the players like playing for him and he keeps them loose and focused and happy, he's doing his job. So much of the decisions these days are fed by computers and FO and analytics anyways. He's managing the personnel more than anything. And I think Joe does a pretty fantastic job in that regard.

Which computer told him to intentionally walk a guy with the bases loaded when his team was trailing?

Must have been a Gateway computer 

Edited May 5, 2022 by True Grich

[Warfarin]

@Angelsjunky I hear what you are saying, but consider this - in AAA (and the minors in general), the outcomes of games (wins/losses) don't really matter much, so instead they can force players to work on their deficiencies specifically while there, which they may not be able to do in the majors.

Just an example, I read before how a SP threw one pitch exclusively for their entire start to try to improve it.  Obviously if they were making a start in the majors, they could not do that.

I think the same applies to position players, etc - they can work on specific deficiencies while in the minors that they can't do in the majors.

So in that sense, it makes sense to carry a bench player who may not play that much, while the younger player with more potential can play daily and work to improve their overall game.

[Angels 1961]

4 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

The short version: He seems enamored with Proven Veterans, even when they're mediocre, and at the expense of younger players with higher upside.

While I agree that some of his calls are dubious, that's the nature of managers and it tends to even out over the course of the year (meaning, sometimes 4-D chess works). But what I don't agree with is playing guys like Mayfield and Rojas over Adell, Stefanic, and Rengifo. I know, roster considerations. But what does Stefanic have to do? And how are Mayfield and Rojas better than what we've seen from Rengifo, but without the upside?

This is not to say that specific moves - like sending Adell down - don't have validity. But Adell made sense because it seemed clear that Marsh was better enough that platooning them was hurting the team, and of course Adell has serious issues to work on. But not only is Marsh far from a polished gem, but since Adell's demotion he's given outfield starts to Mayfield (twice) and Rojas. 

In other words, it is an overall approach: Let's play the mediocre vets, because they're Proven Veterans, rather than the rough prospects with greater upside. And in Rojas' case, it isn't as much that he's a proven vet, but that he's got a feel-good story - yet one that hasn't actually borne fruit, except for a couple weeks of spring training. I mean, maybe they see something in to unlock some kind of breakthrough; Maddon was right about Ward, and we see how that's playing out. But Rojas? I just don't see it.

Meaning, if you're going to field mediocre players, I'd rather see ones with upside. We know what we have with Mayfield, and I think with Rojas. But Rengifo still has unlocked potential, and we haven't even seen Stefanic. And, of course, Adell's upside is still very good.

Anyhow.

Not just Maddon's moves Minasian has lot to say about it. Stefanic and Rengifo would not be getting starts daily. I think halos are looking for another OF. 

[Blarg]

Well, shit. The Angels won again even with Trout on the bench. If they would just lose it would make these threads so much easier to join in on the conversation but the assholes keep winning. I mean, a shutout and 8 runs on the scoreboard. How do you find fault with that? 

[HanfordGuy]

If the Angels win…he’s a genius. They loose…due to the new code of conduct I can not express my hatred without some type of ban.

[Angelsjunky]

10 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Well, shit. The Angels won again even with Trout on the bench. If they would just lose it would make these threads so much easier to join in on the conversation but the assholes keep winning. I mean, a shutout and 8 runs on the scoreboard. How do you find fault with that? 

I didn't find fault in that. Actually, one could argue that the best time to make a critical post, or discuss things we're worried about, is after a win.

Also, note that I had this thought when I noticed that this was the third day in a row that one of Trout, Ward, and Marsh sat, and it seemed like that would have been a good opportunity for Adell to get playing time and then send him down. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Angelsjunky

[Angelsjunky]

26 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

@Angelsjunky I hear what you are saying, but consider this - in AAA (and the minors in general), the outcomes of games (wins/losses) don't really matter much, so instead they can force players to work on their deficiencies specifically while there, which they may not be able to do in the majors.

Just an example, I read before how a SP threw one pitch exclusively for their entire start to try to improve it.  Obviously if they were making a start in the majors, they could not do that.

I think the same applies to position players, etc - they can work on specific deficiencies while in the minors that they can't do in the majors.

So in that sense, it makes sense to carry a bench player who may not play that much, while the younger player with more potential can play daily and work to improve their overall game.

Yes, agreed. I find myself a little frustrated with Adell - both his performance but also how the Angels handled him, from his premature call-up in 2020, and then the fact that his core issues were seemingly not addressed during the 2021 minor league system, at least considering his play this year. Now he's back down, because he still can't field and still has terrible plate discipline and/or pitch recognition. Some of this goes back to when he was first drafted - it was as if the Angels let him go through the minors on pure athleticism and talent, and then once he got to the majors in 2020, they said, "Oh, he should probably work on some basics." 

[Warfarin]

1 minute ago, Angelsjunky said:

Yes, agreed. I find myself a little frustrated with Adell - both his performance but also how the Angels handled him, from his premature call-up in 2020, and then the fact that his core issues were seemingly not addressed during the 2021 minor league system, at least considering his play this year. Now he's back down, because he still can't field and still has terrible plate discipline and/or pitch recognition. Some of this goes back to when he was first drafted - it was as if the Angels let him go through the minors on pure athleticism and talent, and then once he got to the majors in 2020, they said, "Oh, he should probably work on some basics." 

Understandable.  It likely hasn't helped that he has been under two different prospect development "regimes" (Eppler's, now Minasian's), who perhaps have different viewpoints and different points of emphasis.

From my vantage point, it appears Adell's lack of plate discipline is hampering his offensive performance.  Defensively, it appears he is just really, really bad.  I think he needs quite a bit more work in the minors.  We do see it happen all the time - players who spend time and eventually "figure it out."  Look at Ward - he is 28 and suddenly an amazing player.  Adell is just 23 - he has plenty of time to figure things out.

[Angelsjunky]

1 minute ago, Warfarin said:

Understandable.  It likely hasn't helped that he has been under two different prospect development "regimes" (Eppler's, now Minasian's), who perhaps have different viewpoints and different points of emphasis.

From my vantage point, it appears Adell's lack of plate discipline is hampering his offensive performance.  Defensively, it appears he is just really, really bad.  I think he needs quite a bit more work in the minors.  We do see it happen all the time - players who spend time and eventually "figure it out."  Look at Ward - he is 28 and suddenly an amazing player.  Adell is just 23 - he has plenty of time to figure things out.

Yes, true. I think my frustration is based on the feeling that if they had handled him correctly, or at least much better, he'd be good enough to hold down a major league job by now. I mean, it didn't take a genius to read the tea-leaves that Trout wasn't giving up CF anytime soon, and if he did it would be to Marsh. So they could have switched him to LF/RF early on, and then used 2020 to work at minor league camp on his plate discipline.

Of course the silver lining is that if, say, Adell had broken through last year, Ward might not have had a chance to breakout or been traded.

 

[Warfarin]

3 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Yes, true. I think my frustration is based on the feeling that if they had handled him correctly, or at least much better, he'd be good enough to hold down a major league job by now. I mean, it didn't take a genius to read the tea-leaves that Trout wasn't giving up CF anytime soon, and if he did it would be to Marsh. So they could have switched him to LF/RF early on, and then used 2020 to work at minor league camp on his plate discipline.

Of course the silver lining is that if, say, Adell had broken through last year, Ward might not have had a chance to breakout or been traded.

 

Yep.  Imagine if that trade for Pederson went through - it's possible we'd see Ward doing this as a Dodger instead.

But anyway - as it stands, we have Trout, Ward having a stunning year, and Marsh who is going through ups and downs but looks solid overall (especially defensively).  We simply just don't really have room for Adell at the moment, which is actually a good problem to have, because it should enable him to stay in the minors for awhile and continue to work on his game, which he clearly needs to do.

[Angelsjunky]

4 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

Yep.  Imagine if that trade for Pederson went through - it's possible we'd see Ward doing this as a Dodger instead.

But anyway - as it stands, we have Trout, Ward having a stunning year, and Marsh who is going through ups and downs but looks solid overall (especially defensively).  We simply just don't really have room for Adell at the moment, which is actually a good problem to have, because it should enable him to stay in the minors for awhile and continue to work on his game, which he clearly needs to do.

Yes, agreed - that is my general feeling. I mean, if we look at the four outfielders, Trout is as good as ever and has answered any questions that might be lingering about possible decline, Ward is having a breakout of some degree or other, and Marsh is holding is own. So that's a 3-1 record, so to speak. And Adell, despite not playing well and being sent down, at least wasn't 2020 levels of awful.

Weird thing about Marsh is that Def hasn't caught up to his solid defense yet: he's at -0.4. Not sure exactly why that is, but I expect that to enter the positive range at some point soon. He's also at -0.3 BsR, presumably due to some of his blunders early on, but beats me how that is calculated. It is hard to be disappointed by his 126 wRC+ -- that's about as good as one could reasonably hope for. Taking everything into account, he's a 3 WAR player if he continues like this all year, and shows signs of future stardom.

[Angelsjunky]

And Ward...he's still 2 PA below qualifying, but his 1.6 fWAR is 5th in the majors - tied with Aaron Judge, and in 20 fewer PA.

[AngelsLakersFan]

4 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

Yes, agreed - that is my general feeling. I mean, if we look at the four outfielders, Trout is as good as ever and has answered any questions that might be lingering about possible decline, Ward is having a breakout of some degree or other, and Marsh is holding is own. So that's a 3-1 record, so to speak. And Adell, despite not playing well and being sent down, at least wasn't 2020 levels of awful.

Weird thing about Marsh is that Def hasn't caught up to his solid defense yet: he's at -0.4. Not sure exactly why that is, but I expect that to enter the positive range at some point soon. He's also at -0.3 BsR, presumably due to some of his blunders early on, but beats me how that is calculated. It is hard to be disappointed by his 126 wRC+ -- that's about as good as one could reasonably hope for. Taking everything into account, he's a 3 WAR player if he continues like this all year, and shows signs of future stardom.

It's tough to put up good Def rating in a corner outfield spot. Plus if it were offensive stats we were looking at it'd be closer to the equivalent of ~30 PAs.