2021-22 CBA Negotiation/Lockout Thread (DEAL IS AGREED TO)

[mmc]

 

[eligrba]

[Lou]

" I like to go swimmin' with bow-legged women and swim between their legs... swim between their legs... swim between their legs..."

- Colonel Sherman T. Potter 

[AngelsLakersFan]

12 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

I can’t for the life of me understand why the owners would place a restriction on themselves that clearly makes it harder for them to run their teams.  

You mean like the luxury tax?

[halonatic13]

6 hours ago, mmc said:

 

I just want to book my trip already.  

[Docwaukee]

12 hours ago, HanfordGuy said:

Fixed.

  there's no debate here.  

[Lou]

26 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

  there's no debate here.  

None whatsoever.

[Stradling]

On 2/15/2022 at 11:33 AM, Make Angels Great Again said:

Why is the average owner net worth relavant to the average player salary?

It is relevant in the context he was talking about. It’s disingenuous to shit on players for eating lobster dinners while minor leaguers have to eat Taco Bell priced food, not caring and ignore that the owners are far more well off than even the lobster eating MLB players.  

[Make Angels Great Again]

7 hours ago, Stradling said:

It is relevant in the context he was talking about. It’s disingenuous to shit on players for eating lobster dinners while minor leaguers have to eat Taco Bell priced food, not caring and ignore that the owners are far more well off than even the lobster eating MLB players.  

 

Is it though? Just because the owners are absurdly wealthy doesn't mean they have an obligation to go from paying players insane amounts of money, to super insane amounts of money. The players are compensated well for playing baseball, I don't think the average person would disagree with that.

 

On top of that, pretty much all the owners have not accrued their wealth through owning MLB teams. They were already rich to begin with. Also, I'm pretty sure Arte has said he's run the franchise at a loss before. Without seeing their books, it's not like we can verify that one way or the other. Personally, I take people at their word.

[Dtwncbad]

10 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

You mean like the luxury tax?

You mean the mechanism that cumulatively helps the owners control overall salary expense, presumably to at least attempt some parity that will help their product be more marketable and help them succeed?

The luxury tax is a complication to running their clubs but it isn’t hard to see what purpose it serves for them.

I don’t see any purpose for the teams to restrict trade talk between teams during a lockout. . . Unless you just consider that it is a PR move to prevent headlines that could accuse them of not prioritizing negotiations like, “Yankees spend the week discussing Castillo trade instead of meeting with players to resolve lockout.”

Edited February 17, 2022 by Dtwncbad

[Dtwncbad]

7 hours ago, Stradling said:

It is relevant in the context he was talking about. It’s disingenuous to shit on players for eating lobster dinners while minor leaguers have to eat Taco Bell priced food, not caring and ignore that the owners are far more well off than even the lobster eating MLB players.  

Just so you know, I was not “shitting” on the players.  The point I attempted was it continues to be a pattern that the owners exclusively are blamed for what is happening in the minors.  My personal opinion is that it is absolutely fair to also look at the MLB Players Union as an organization that does little or nothing for the minor leaguers.

Why does the Players Union get a pass on “being greedy” when they could include the minor leaguers in their union so that they get more money and better working conditions?

I am sure many can answer that question carefully to avoid calling the players greedy.

But the reality is the Major League Players Union is probably pretty happy with having ALL the negating power against the owners and excluding sharing their gains with other PLAYERS.

The owners can afford to put more resources into the minors.  Yes.

And the MLB Players Union could fight for it. . . But they don’t because they want any available dime to stay with them.

[eligrba]

12 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Just so you know, I was not “shitting” on the players.  The point I attempted was it continues to be a pattern that the owners exclusively are blamed for what is happening in the minors.  My personal opinion is that it is absolutely fair to also look at the MLB Players Union as an organization that does little or nothing for the minor leaguers.

Why does the Players Union get a pass on “being greedy” when they could include the minor leaguers in their union so that they get more money and better working conditions?

I am sure many can answer that question carefully to avoid calling the players greedy.

But the reality is the Major League Players Union is probably pretty happy with having ALL the negating power against the owners and excluding sharing their gains with other PLAYERS.

The owners can afford to put more resources into the minors.  Yes.

And the MLB Players Union could fight for it. . . But they don’t because they want any available dime to stay with them.

All organizations are self-serving.  It's the primary purpose of every organization in existence.  I have no idea if the MLPA could add the minor league players into the union.  There are many laws regulating unions and collective bargaining.  It is clear that the needs of minor league players are being ignored by both MLPA and owners.

[Dtwncbad]

26 minutes ago, eligrba said:

  It is clear that the needs of minor league players are being ignored by both MLPA and owners.

This is exactly what I would like people to see rather than exclusively blaming the owners.

[Dtwncbad]

Now back to the most important thing. . . 
Dexter Fowler.  Is he healthy and is there any way he play for the Angels this year?

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, Dtwncbad said:

Now back to the most important thing. . . 
Dexter Fowler.  Is he healthy and is there any way he play for the Angels this year?

the most important thing is Kelly Kapowski getting compared to anyone else.   Let's not lose sight of that.  

[eligrba]

17 minutes ago, AlwaysAnAngelsFan said:

Needs? Not needs, wants.

MiLB players have a choice. They are choosing to play minor league baseball in the hopes of playing Major League Baseball.

It's no  different than someone choosing to take a low paying internship in an industry they want to build a career in.

You don't think minor league players have particular needs for proper development?

[Hubs]

30 minutes ago, AlwaysAnAngelsFan said:

Needs? Not needs, wants.

MiLB players have a choice. They are choosing to play minor league baseball in the hopes of playing Major League Baseball.

It's no  different than someone choosing to take a low paying internship in an industry they want to build a career in.

There are no internships where in the industry they keep you under control for six years and potentially as many as 12 before you can pick to work for a competitor. That's indentured servitude.

It's not an internship, it's a job, and they need to pay minor league players at least the minimum wage. They shouldn't get a break on those wages. 

Paying these guys like 40-50k per season isn't gonna break the bank. And it's not life changing money. Just because they only work from Mid-Feb to Mid-Sept doesn't mean they don't need to support themselves for the other 5 months.

Salaried positions allow for travel and such to be uncompensated. 

1k per week for the whole year for all 180 minor leaguers for an owner seems like a lot, but it's less than $10M overall (which some are paying to one bad starting pitcher). Not a huge investment. In return, they get a cut of minor league attendance money, which isn't much, but 4 teams playing 70 odd games a year, is 280 games, and if they all average 5300 fans (2021 average) and get $3 a ticket, they recoup 40-50% of that. If they average more, as some of the AAA clubs do, they get even more back.

Minor league baseball is quite profitable and not just because they pay players nearly nothing. If they provided housing, which they are finally starting to do, they will probably be able to pay players less, and claim that they provide $1000-$1500 per month in housing as part of their "salary" package.

 

[jsnpritchett]

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0084/4434/6432/products/1731469_Unframed_1024x1024.jpg?v=1558052932

[T.G.]

can someone explain the finer points of how the arbitration pool of money works?  I know each team pays into it, but how would they determine how much a player receives and is it limited per team?

[Blarg]

14 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Paying these guys like 40-50k per season isn't gonna break the bank. And it's not life changing money. Just because they only work from Mid-Feb to Mid-Sept doesn't mean they don't need to support themselves for the other 5 months.

In my industry most of the technical talent are daily hire and only work on a show until they are no longer needed. So everyone from production to post has their show and when it wraps they go find other work. Baseball players are no different. Their pay goes from when they start to end of their contract and after that they can go find other work. When the show stats back up there is an expectance they all return, just like when spring training starts. Nobody gets paid on their hiatus.

[Erstad Grit]

24 minutes ago, Hubs said:

There are no internships where in the industry they keep you under control for six years and potentially as many as 12 before you can pick to work for a competitor. That's indentured servitude.

It's not an internship, it's a job, and they need to pay minor league players at least the minimum wage. They shouldn't get a break on those wages. 

Paying these guys like 40-50k per season isn't gonna break the bank. And it's not life changing money. Just because they only work from Mid-Feb to Mid-Sept doesn't mean they don't need to support themselves for the other 5 months.

Salaried positions allow for travel and such to be uncompensated. 

1k per week for the whole year for all 180 minor leaguers for an owner seems like a lot, but it's less than $10M overall (which some are paying to one bad starting pitcher). Not a huge investment. In return, they get a cut of minor league attendance money, which isn't much, but 4 teams playing 70 odd games a year, is 280 games, and if they all average 5300 fans (2021 average) and get $3 a ticket, they recoup 40-50% of that. If they average more, as some of the AAA clubs do, they get even more back.

Minor league baseball is quite profitable and not just because they pay players nearly nothing. If they provided housing, which they are finally starting to do, they will probably be able to pay players less, and claim that they provide $1000-$1500 per month in housing as part of their "salary" package.

 

If owners agreed to this on the condition of eliminating a bunch of minor league roster spots what would your response be?

[Dtwncbad]

1 hour ago, Hubs said:

There are no internships where in the industry they keep you under control for six years and potentially as many as 12 before you can pick to work for a competitor. That's indentured servitude.

It's not an internship, it's a job, and they need to pay minor league players at least the minimum wage. They shouldn't get a break on those wages. 

Paying these guys like 40-50k per season isn't gonna break the bank. And it's not life changing money. Just because they only work from Mid-Feb to Mid-Sept doesn't mean they don't need to support themselves for the other 5 months.

Salaried positions allow for travel and such to be uncompensated. 

1k per week for the whole year for all 180 minor leaguers for an owner seems like a lot, but it's less than $10M overall (which some are paying to one bad starting pitcher). Not a huge investment. In return, they get a cut of minor league attendance money, which isn't much, but 4 teams playing 70 odd games a year, is 280 games, and if they all average 5300 fans (2021 average) and get $3 a ticket, they recoup 40-50% of that. If they average more, as some of the AAA clubs do, they get even more back.

Minor league baseball is quite profitable and not just because they pay players nearly nothing. If they provided housing, which they are finally starting to do, they will probably be able to pay players less, and claim that they provide $1000-$1500 per month in housing as part of their "salary" package.

 

No consideration to signing bonuses?

[Angelsfan1984]

15 minute meeting today…both they really want to come to an agreement. I’ve been in meetings that lasted longer simply because people were getting coffee. 
 

both sides negotiating representatives should be canned. This is a clown fiesta now. 

[Dtwncbad]

48 minutes ago, Erstad Grit said:

If owners agreed to this on the condition of eliminating a bunch of minor league roster spots what would your response be?

That’s where it would go.  Truthfully a very small number of minor leaguers matter in terms of being actual future major leaguers.  You need the rest to just have games (two legit prospects can’t play one on one).

So if people are ready to have designations of players like “prospect” and “practice squad” then so be it.

The “prospects” will most certainly be the guys that got signing bonuses large enough to cover their minor league career, and the “practice squad” players will play mostly for fun, get no signing bonus and receive close to minimum wage where they will probably also have a second job.

[Lou]

1 hour ago, Hubs said:

Just because they only work from Mid-Feb to Mid-Sept doesn't mean they don't need to support themselves for the other 5 months.

"Support themselves" being the operative words.