OC Register: Angels have discussed moving Mike Trout off center field

[AngelsWin.com]

ANAHEIM ― Ten weeks have passed since Mike Trout strained his right calf running the bases on May 17. At the time, the Angels’ center fielder was projected to miss six to eight weeks. Yet as of Tuesday, Manager Joe Maddon said Trout “still doesn’t feel like he could push it right now.”

As long as Shohei Ohtani is healthy, the Angels can’t offer Trout the opportunity to ease back into the lineup as a designated hitter. They can, however, offer Trout a different position in the field in hopes of hastening his return.

The three-time American League MVP has previously said that he would aim to play center field upon his return from the injured list. Now that his rehab is dragging, Trout and the Angels have discussed moving him to a corner position.

“You would think giving him less ground to cover might be wise,” Maddon said. “So we’ll see how that plays out. I’ve already broached the subject with him. His thought was originally that he was going to be OK once his leg feels fine but we’ll wait and see.”

The conversation coincides with the emergence of rookie Brandon Marsh, who debuted on July 18. Since then, Marsh had started nine consecutive games in center field until Juan Lagares spelled him Wednesday. Marsh has not made an error through his first 78 innings in the field. He is hitting .219 (7 for 32) with three doubles, four walks and 10 strikeouts.

Marsh’s expected batting average – calculated by Statcast to reflect a hitter’s quality of contact – is a more comely .266. Forty percent of his batted balls have been recorded as line drives, but several have been hit directly into defensive shifts. Maddon believes Marsh has been the victim of some bad luck at the plate.

“That’s the part of coming from Triple-A to the big leagues – you still are able to have a scouting report on the guy you’ve never seen before,” the manager said.

The Angels acquired veteran Adam Eaton to plug a hole in right field. Justin Upton, when healthy, has been a mainstay in left. But it could be the rookie Marsh who keeps his position when Trout is cleared to return.

THAISS RETURNS, WALSH TO IL

Jared Walsh was placed on the 10-day injured list with a right intercostal strain, leaving the Angels without their starting first baseman for at least the next nine days. The transaction is retroactive to Tuesday.

Matt Thaiss was recalled from Triple-A Salt Lake, where he was batting .287 with a .932 on-base plus slugging percentage. Thaiss had primarily played catcher for the Bees, starting 30 of 43 games behind the plate.

With the Angels, Thaiss will primarily split time at first base with Phil Gosselin until Walsh returns, Maddon said.

“The biggest thing to me would be that you keep him solvent catching somehow,” Maddon said of Thaiss. “I’m not saying in a game but maybe catch some bullpens if you’re not going to give him a lot of opportunities there right now. You have to let him get the squat. (Catching instructor Jose Molina) is probably going to have to block with him a little bit, have him throw to the bags a little bit, and he’s got to go out and catch a pitcher now and then. In the meantime, get his ground balls, get him up to speed at first base.”

Walsh’s 22 home runs rank 10th in the American League, and his .995 fielding percentage at the position ranks first. He was chosen to his first All-Star team earlier this month. Maddon is hopeful that Walsh can miss the minimum of 10 days.

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• Angels still have no timeline for Mike Trout’s return

The Angels made one other transaction Wednesday, selecting right-handed pitcher Austin Warren to the major league roster and optioning right-hander Andrew Wantz to Triple-A.

Warren, the Angels’ sixth-round draft pick in 2018, was 2-3 with a 6.19 ERA in 22 games at Salt Lake.

In four appearances, Wantz allowed three runs in 5-1/3 innings following his July 4 debut.

ALSO

Right-hander Alex Cobb played catch for the third consecutive day, testing a blister on his right middle finger. If he cannot start Thursday’s game against the Oakland A’s, Maddon said Dylan Bundy would. … Outfielder Starling Marte, whom the A’s acquired from the Marlins earlier in the day Wednesday, is expected to be in Oakland’s starting lineup. … Ohtani’s next appearance as a pitcher will come Sunday afternoon against the A’s, Maddon said.

UP NEXT

Angels (RHP Dylan Bundy or RHP Alex Cobb) vs. Oakland (RHP Frankie Montas, 8-8, 4.34 ERA), Thursday, 6:38 p.m., Bally Sports West, 830 AM

View the full article

[AngelsLakersFan]

Oh?

If Trout can't play CF he shouldn't come back, what's the point.

[Angelsjunky]

And so it begins, maybe a bit earlier than expected.

This is actually a good thing, both for Trout and the Angels. Marsh is a superior CF, and Trout might find LF just easier to cover. He really doesn't belong in RF with his weak arm.

They can re-assess in Spring Training, and chances are Trout takes CF back. For awhile. It may be clear to everyone--even Trout--that the team is better off with Marsh in CF.

In case you're a big nerd like me and wonder how this will impact WAR, CF has a position adjustment of +2.5 Runs, LF -7.5. So that's a 10 Run swing, which is about 1 WAR. But some of that might be offset by superior defensive numbers in LF, assuming he takes well to the position. But it will still probably have a negative impact, my guess being about -0.5 WAR per year.

[Slegnaac]

8 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

And so it begins, maybe a bit earlier than expected.

This is actually a good thing, both for Trout and the Angels. Marsh is a superior CF, and Trout might find LF just easier to cover. He really doesn't belong in RF with his weak arm.

They can re-assess in Spring Training, and chances are Trout takes CF back. For awhile. It may be clear to everyone--even Trout--that the team is better off with Marsh in CF.

In case you're a big nerd like me and wonder how this will impact WAR, CF has a position adjustment of +2.5 Runs, LF -7.5. So that's a 10 Run swing, which is about 1 WAR. But some of that might be offset by superior defensive numbers in LF, assuming he takes well to the position. But it will still probably have a negative impact, my guess being about -0.5 WAR per year.

What was Trout's WAR when Bourjos played CF?

[fan_since79]

I hope we don't have to remain cautious about Trout's calf for the rest of his career.

 I mean, how fragile is this guy all of a sudden?

[jsnpritchett]

Just now, fan_since79 said:

I hope we don't have to remain cautious about Trout's calf for the rest of his career.

 I mean, how fragile is this guy all of a sudden?

[Angelsjunky]

15 minutes ago, Slegnaac said:

What was Trout's WAR when Bourjos played CF?

I don't know the breakdown of Def Runs for those years (2012-13). Fangraphs does have a breakdown, but only other data. But Trout was a better defender back then, so I'm not sure if it is relevant.

Anyhow, my guess is that Trout could go from being an OK centerfielder to a good left fielder or, if you're more bullish than the stats, from a good centerfielder to a very good left fielder. But who knows.

[ettin]

32 minutes ago, fan_since79 said:

I hope we don't have to remain cautious about Trout's calf for the rest of his career.

 I mean, how fragile is this guy all of a sudden?

As long as he doesn't pull a Grady Sizemore, we should be good. Although I think this would be temporary to alleviate his calf the remainder of the season, he will have to move to LF at some point, later in his career, so this is just the team suggesting a cautious course of action, that perhaps improves the team defensively, but it is marginal, in all likelihood.

[Second Base]

When Mike Trout is healthy, he is still the best defensive CF in this roster, Marsh included.

But just because Trout is the best defensive CF on the team, doesn't mean he should be playing CF. And the reason is found in the small details

Trout isn't 100% and quite frankly, I have my doubts about him ever returning to 100% in 2021. It might be one of those things that lingers and takes the off-season and a new mobilization program to fully heal and prevent. These things just come with age. Just as an example, personally I've never had back or shoulder issues, but now the same movements, reps and weights from my 20's are causing discomfort in my 30's. And the answer has been showing up 10-15 minutes earlier to the gym and going through uncomfortable mobilizing exercises. It sucks and I hate it, but it's fixed the issue and is necessary long term. 

The second reason is that while a healthy Trout is better than Marsh in 2021, doesn't mean it'll be that way in 2022. Trout isn't going to get better defensively, and Marsh is. They'll probably be pretty equal in 2022 with Trout needing to fully move to the corner in 2023. 

On the other hand, Upton is still the LF in 2022, the only open spot on the roster is RF and Marsh being left handed with a better arm fits RF better. Which means a return to CF for Trout in 2022 is necessary to maximize personnel value.

Come 2023, we'll have a decision to make. Jordyn Adams will be ready by then if he isn't traded, and defensively, he's going to blow both Marsh and Trout out of the water. Seriously, wait till you guys get to see this kid in the gaps. True 80 grade speed. HOWEVER, Jo Adell is also going to be more than ready by then. And his thunderous bat in the lineup definitely offsets the loss of Upton. But, that would likely mean Adell in RF, with Marsh in CF and Trout in LF. My trepidation comes from the fact that Jo Adell is the worst defensive RF I think I've ever seen. Who knows, maybe all that athleticism changes things and he figures it out. 

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, ettin said:

As long as he doesn't pull a Grady Sizemore, we should be good. Although I think this would be temporary to alleviate his calf the remainder of the season, he will have to move to LF at some point, later in his career, so this is just the team suggesting a cautious course of action, that perhaps improves the team defensively, but it is marginal, in all likelihood.

Long term, LF is Trout’s spot.   He needs to preserve himself now that he’s 30 next month and they have the athletic and much younger Marsh, Adell, and later on Adams.

Time to realize that Upton may need to go to another team, even if the Halos have to eat most of the remaining $36 million salary as of now.

They released Pujols with some $25 million remaining.   Has to be a team out there who will take on say $8 million of Upton’s $36 million?

Edited July 29, 2021 by Angel Oracle

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, Second Base said:

When Mike Trout is healthy, he is still the best defensive CF in this roster, Marsh included.

But just because Trout is the best defensive CF on the team, doesn't mean he should be playing CF. And the reason is found in the small details

Trout isn't 100% and quite frankly, I have my doubts about him ever returning to 100% in 2021. It might be one of those things that lingers and takes the off-season and a new mobilization program to fully heal and prevent. These things just come with age. Just as an example, personally I've never had back or shoulder issues, but now the same movements, reps and weights from my 20's are causing discomfort in my 30's. And the answer has been showing up 10-15 minutes earlier to the gym and going through uncomfortable mobilizing exercises. It sucks and I hate it, but it's fixed the issue and is necessary long term. 

The second reason is that while a healthy Trout is better than Marsh in 2021, doesn't mean it'll be that way in 2022. Trout isn't going to get better defensively, and Marsh is. They'll probably be pretty equal in 2022 with Trout needing to fully move to the corner in 2023. 

On the other hand, Upton is still the LF in 2022, the only open spot on the roster is RF and Marsh being left handed with a better arm fits RF better. Which means a return to CF for Trout in 2022 is necessary to maximize personnel value.

Come 2023, we'll have a decision to make. Jordyn Adams will be ready by then if he isn't traded, and defensively, he's going to blow both Marsh and Trout out of the water. Seriously, wait till you guys get to see this kid in the gaps. True 80 grade speed. HOWEVER, Jo Adell is also going to be more than ready by then. And his thunderous bat in the lineup definitely offsets the loss of Upton. But, that would likely mean Adell in RF, with Marsh in CF and Trout in LF. My trepidation comes from the fact that Jo Adell is the worst defensive RF I think I've ever seen. Who knows, maybe all that athleticism changes things and he figures it out. 

Or Trout in LF, Adell in CF, and Marsh in RF?  Marsh has the best arm anyway.

But yes, Adams may make Adell tradable after 2022 anyway.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Angel Oracle

[Angelsjunky]

6 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Or Trout in LF, Adell in CF, and Marsh in RF?  Marsh has the best arm anyway.

But yes, Adams may make Adell tradable after 2022 anyway.

This illustrates that the Angels have a minor problem to figure out, although probably one that figures itself over time. But Adell in CF and Marsh in RF is like "robbing Peter to pay Paul." Adell is ok in CF and Marsh good in RF, but Marsh is better than Adell in CF--a more important position--and Adell far worse in RF.

 

[Angelsjunky]

8 hours ago, Second Base said:

When Mike Trout is healthy, he is still the best defensive CF in this roster, Marsh included.

But just because Trout is the best defensive CF on the team, doesn't mean he should be playing CF. And the reason is found in the small details

Trout isn't 100% and quite frankly, I have my doubts about him ever returning to 100% in 2021. It might be one of those things that lingers and takes the off-season and a new mobilization program to fully heal and prevent. These things just come with age. Just as an example, personally I've never had back or shoulder issues, but now the same movements, reps and weights from my 20's are causing discomfort in my 30's. And the answer has been showing up 10-15 minutes earlier to the gym and going through uncomfortable mobilizing exercises. It sucks and I hate it, but it's fixed the issue and is necessary long term. 

The second reason is that while a healthy Trout is better than Marsh in 2021, doesn't mean it'll be that way in 2022. Trout isn't going to get better defensively, and Marsh is. They'll probably be pretty equal in 2022 with Trout needing to fully move to the corner in 2023. 

On the other hand, Upton is still the LF in 2022, the only open spot on the roster is RF and Marsh being left handed with a better arm fits RF better. Which means a return to CF for Trout in 2022 is necessary to maximize personnel value.

Come 2023, we'll have a decision to make. Jordyn Adams will be ready by then if he isn't traded, and defensively, he's going to blow both Marsh and Trout out of the water. Seriously, wait till you guys get to see this kid in the gaps. True 80 grade speed. HOWEVER, Jo Adell is also going to be more than ready by then. And his thunderous bat in the lineup definitely offsets the loss of Upton. But, that would likely mean Adell in RF, with Marsh in CF and Trout in LF. My trepidation comes from the fact that Jo Adell is the worst defensive RF I think I've ever seen. Who knows, maybe all that athleticism changes things and he figures it out. 

The timeline actually works pretty well for this to figure itself out - that is, by the performances and development of Marsh, Adell, and Adams.

We'll continue to see a lot of Marsh this year, and then Adell will be called up sometime in the next month (I think next two weeks). If they can't unload Upton, I'd like to see a four-man outfield of Trout, Upton, Adell, and Marsh next year. With the injury history of both Trout and Upton, Adell and Marsh should get plenty of playing time. 3 x 162  = 486 starts, which divided by 4 is 121.5. If we start with 130-140 starts for Trout, Upton can play a bit less and plan for 120-130 starts--but probably end up with 100-110, which leaves Adell and Marsh with about 120 starts each. 

They can even say to Upton, Adell, and Marsh that they're platooning through two positions, with the third player being a late game replacement and fill-in for the other three. 

By the time Adams is ready, we'll know what we have in Adell and Marsh, and Upton will be gone. If all three young outfielders look like keepers, they can do something similar in 2023: rotate them through two positions, with Adams in particular backing up Trout and being a late game replacement.

This isn't the traditional four-man outfield with three clear starters and one fourth outfielder, but I think could work, at least for the next two or three years. Probably by 2024, we'll have Trout in LF, and two of Adams, Adell, and Marsh in CF/RF, with one traded, and then someone like Knowles as the 4th outfielder. By that point we'll know more about the younger cohort of outfielders--A-Ram, Calabrese, Knowles, Deveaux, even Reyes and Santana.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Angelsjunky

[Stradling]

How does years of club control/options work?  So Adell’s clock started last year. If he isn’t called up at all this year do they get another year of club control?  I’m unsure of how many option years they have, is it four?  I know there are percentages of days on a team to equate service time.  I’m asking because I see no point in wasting any options or service time to bring Adell up this year. Now if service time/options aren’t in play or at risk, call him up the moment you decide to sell. 

[Angelsjunky]

11 minutes ago, Stradling said:

How does years of club control/options work?  So Adell’s clock started last year. If he isn’t called up at all this year do they get another year of club control?  I’m unsure of how many option years they have, is it four?  I know there are percentages of days on a team to equate service time.  I’m asking because I see no point in wasting any options or service time to bring Adell up this year. Now if service time/options aren’t in play or at risk, call him up the moment you decide to sell. 

It is always confusing to me, but Adell has 0.153 years of service time. Maybe they want to keep that below 0.5, so if we assume they wouldn't want to play him more than 0.34 of a year, that's about 62 days (.34 x 183 days).

The final game of the year is Oct 3, so if we go back 62 days from that we get to August 2, I believe - or thereabouts. So we're not far from that, and I could see them calling him up anytime after that.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Angelsjunky

[Stradling]

That .15 of service time for Adell is surprisingly low. He played more than half the season last year (almost 2/3) and I thought they gave them full credit of service time even in the shortened season.  

[Angels 1961]

10 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Oh?

If Trout can't play CF he shouldn't come back, what's the point.

His bat batting behind Ohtani.

[angelsnationtalk]

The Angels are acting like Trout is 35 years old. Dude is 29 and has a calf injury that's healing. If he can't play center field (which he deserves it), then keep him on the IL. 

There's no point in rushing him back..... 

Angels want to be buyers don't they....

[Stradling]

6 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

The Angels are acting like Trout is 35 years old. Dude is 29 and has a calf injury that's healing. If he can't play center field (which he deserves it), then keep him on the IL. 

There's no point in rushing him back..... 

Angels want to be buyers don't they....

No one is talking about rushing him back.  The “rushing him back” timeline ended four weeks ago. 

[angelsnationtalk]

5 minutes ago, Stradling said:

No one is talking about rushing him back.  The “rushing him back” timeline ended four weeks ago. 

Well they're talking about moving him there to give him less ground to cover so it stays healthy. 

To me, it's babying the injury that Trout believes will be okay when his leg feels fine

Just an opinion. 

[Stradling]

At some point he’s moving off of CF, if we didn’t have Upton I would put him in LF and hand CF to Marsh and make the transition now.  I don’t think Trout will be good in RF, but I guess we will see. 

[Angelsjunky]

51 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

The Angels are acting like Trout is 35 years old. Dude is 29 and has a calf injury that's healing. If he can't play center field (which he deserves it), then keep him on the IL. 

There's no point in rushing him back..... 

Angels want to be buyers don't they....

Again, they're really only talking about this year, which makes sense. LF = less running than CF.

Despite what I said above, I don't think this means that he'll play LF next year, but that it might imply the first stirrings. I think Scotty is right, that he won't "have to" move to LF until Adams is ready, if Adams is the future in CF. But that won't be the case until 2023 at the earliest, possibly 2024.

If it is Marsh or Adell, they can probably push it out another year or so, but I fully expect Trout to be in LF by 2024 or 25, his age 32-33 seasons.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Angelsjunky

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

That .15 of service time for Adell is surprisingly low. He played more than half the season last year (almost 2/3) and I thought they gave them full credit of service time even in the shortened season.  

Asccording to a Baseball America chat, had it been a regular (normal full) season, he still wouldn't have been called up prior to them getting an extra year...  So, while they lost a year of control, the way the math works they still managed to get the extra one. 

End result is they have him for 6 years.

[Jay]

LF or RF is less ground to cover than CF but still a risk of injury on any given play. If he's not healthy he shouldn't be out there.

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, angelsnationtalk said:

The Angels are acting like Trout is 35 years old. Dude is 29 and has a calf injury that's healing. If he can't play center field (which he deserves it), then keep him on the IL. 

Or they are reacting to what has become a trend with him and injuries.   Teams don't always move guys off a position because he's decrepit, smart teams have been doing it earlier to try to extend a player's prime.