Innings Pitched

[Dtwncbad]

There are 15 teams in the AL.

So you would expect that each team would have approximately 3 pitchers among the top 45 in innings pitched.

Seattle has 5 in the top 45.

Texas has 3 in the top 45.

Oakland has 3 in the top 45.

Houston has 3 in the top 45.

The Angels have zero.

It seems like every name that comes up gets roasted with negatives as to why that pitcher is not ideal.

This situation can not afford to wait around for a perfect solution (and by the way any perfect solution pitcher would be pursued by lots of teams, and then the negative would be “too expensive” anyway).

The Angels need to acquire at least two starting pitchers that can log innings.

Of course I would love to land Cole in the offseason.  That would be great.

But in my opinion that would not be enough.

The Angels should be chasing a starter with some future control right now.

Nobody ever wants to “overpay” but can the team really afford to NOT make some moves to fix this mess?

 

[Angel Oracle]

It has been frustrating that how long has it been since the starters had any kind of consistent enough innings pitched?   

2015, when six guys started all but 9 games, three pitched at least 159 innings and two others pitched over 130 innings?   And of course, that was the most recent season to be in true contention for a WC spot.

[Dtwncbad]

Part of my frustration is so many saying a trade for this guy is “too expensive” in prospects or signing that guy is “too expensive” in money.

Well it is also very expensive to have a relatively high payroll with no pitching.  You are basically wasting all the money.

I am not advocating getting bent over and trading Adell for some 4.50 era dude.

But I am saying be willing to outbid other teams for the right player.

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

3 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Part of my frustration is so many saying a trade for this guy is “too expensive” in prospects or signing that guy is “too expensive” in money.

Well it is also very expensive to have a relatively high payroll with no pitching.  You are basically wasting all the money.

I am not advocating getting bent over and trading Adell for some 4.50 era dude.

But I am saying be willing to outbid other teams for the right player.

 

The second paragraph is a good point.

I think youll see the angels a little different this winter. You have to keep in mind that in the recent few offsessons, you were seeing a team in a whole different situation. No money, no farm, holes everywhere. We simply had to bite the bullet, and stock up on draft picks. There was no other way.

Not to mention, they had to settle the trout situation.

Now, thats settled. And we have prospects. And we have some money. And now we only have one (glaring) hole.

 

[eaterfan]

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2019/7/19/20700250/baseball-rarities-become-common-fastball-shift

Here's an article by Ben Lindbergh on the Ringer about trends in baseball. He interviewed Eppler for it and he talks about the increased bullpen usage and the roll of pitchers.

Basically, he says what @totdprods and I have said in several threads about the Angels pitching strategy. They want guys who can get outs. Obviously, they would love to have an ace you can trot out there but they plan on just getting guys who can get outs whether it's 6 outs or 18 outs in a game.

It's certainly frustrating right now, because I don't think they have the personnel to implement the strategy, but they are clearly working towards it and getting closer. I think the timing is actually pretty good. In 2-3 years we should see the guys from the last few drafts become MLB ready at the same time a few of our top prospects are ready to roll. If they can sign Cole I think the team is in a great position. A rotation anchored by Cole, Ohtani, and Canning with a bunch of swing guys like Suarez, Barria, and the recently drafted guys will be pretty damn effective.

[totdprods]

Yeah, it wouldn’t surprise me if we have a bit of an unconventional pitching staff the next year or two. 

Lets assume they do sign Cole, and he stays the 32 GS, 210 IP monster we need, and swing a trade for a good mid-tier arm. I’ll float out Chris Archer for that guy. He joins Andrew Heaney as the ‘should-be’ stable ‘vet’ arms. 

Next year, Ohtani will likely have some sort of inning limit, as will any other young arm, Canning and Barria included, despite their regular exposure to the a big-league rotation. 

What you have now is a sure thing in Cole, a couple relatively stable vets, and a whole bunch of guys that will be treated a little delicately, as they should, in order to stay healthy in the long run. 

This is where I think a new type of pitcher emerges for the Angels. A role for guys like J.C. Ramirez, Taylor Cole, Felix Pena, Noe Ramirez, Jeremy Beasley, Jose Suarez, Jaime Barria, Patrick Sandoval, Andrew Wantz, Oliver Ortega, Dillon Peters, Adrian De Horta, Adalberto Mejia, Jesus Castillo, Kyle Bradish, and Luis Madero.

That’s a lot of arms, and almost all of them very well could be in play for 2020. Almost all of them come with minor league options, almost all of them have been stretched out to start, yet only a few of them are true SP prospects. And all are too good to simply move to basic relief role, but mostly lack the typical high-lev bullpen/one-inning stuff, like Buttrey, Robles, Bedrosian, Anderson, and Middleton. 

So what happens is you have a bunch of guys not quite good enough to be everyday SPs, too stretched out for basic bullpen work, and not quite good enough to be your typical dominant closer-type.

I think the rotation could be Cole, Archer, Heaney, Ohtani, and then a rotating cast of all the names above - sometimes paired with one of those high-lev arms as an opener - and an expectation that that they just give you 2-3 innings of work every 2-3 days instead of a traditional 5 innings every 4-5 days, with guys rotating through SLC based on usage and need for fresh arms. 

Eventually - these guys will define their own roles. Someone will emerge as a true SP (Canning is just about there, but I’ll use him as an example) and he’ll ascend into the next tier of traditional SPs behind Cole,  joining Heaney and Archer. Maybe guys like Ortega and Madero struggle in multiple innings, and grow into high-lev one inning arms like Robles. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

7 hours ago, totdprods said:

Yeah, it wouldn’t surprise me if we have a bit of an unconventional pitching staff the next year or two. 

Lets assume they do sign Cole, and he stays the 32 GS, 210 IP monster we need, and swing a trade for a good mid-tier arm. I’ll float out Chris Archer for that guy. He joins Andrew Heaney as the ‘should-be’ stable ‘vet’ arms. 

Next year, Ohtani will likely have some sort of inning limit, as will any other young arm, Canning and Barria included, despite their regular exposure to the a big-league rotation. 

What you have now is a sure thing in Cole, a couple relatively stable vets, and a whole bunch of guys that will be treated a little delicately, as they should, in order to stay healthy in the long run. 

This is where I think a new type of pitcher emerges for the Angels. A role for guys like J.C. Ramirez, Taylor Cole, Felix Pena, Noe Ramirez, Jeremy Beasley, Jose Suarez, Jaime Barria, Patrick Sandoval, Andrew Wantz, Oliver Ortega, Dillon Peters, Adrian De Horta, Adalberto Mejia, Jesus Castillo, Kyle Bradish, and Luis Madero.

That’s a lot of arms, and almost all of them very well could be in play for 2020. Almost all of them come with minor league options, almost all of them have been stretched out to start, yet only a few of them are true SP prospects. And all are too good to simply move to basic relief role, but mostly lack the typical high-lev bullpen/one-inning stuff, like Buttrey, Robles, Bedrosian, Anderson, and Middleton. 

So what happens is you have a bunch of guys not quite good enough to be everyday SPs, too stretched out for basic bullpen work, and not quite good enough to be your typical dominant closer-type.

I think the rotation could be Cole, Archer, Heaney, Ohtani, and then a rotating cast of all the names above - sometimes paired with one of those high-lev arms as an opener - and an expectation that that they just give you 2-3 innings of work every 2-3 days instead of a traditional 5 innings every 4-5 days, with guys rotating through SLC based on usage and need for fresh arms. 

Eventually - these guys will define their own roles. Someone will emerge as a true SP (Canning is just about there, but I’ll use him as an example) and he’ll ascend into the next tier of traditional SPs behind Cole,  joining Heaney and Archer. Maybe guys like Ortega and Madero struggle in multiple innings, and grow into high-lev one inning arms like Robles. 

^^^

[Blarg]

I just get the feeling Chris Archer is fools gold. What he did in Tampa up to 2015 is not the pitcher he has been since. But people still think he can be that guy. 

[totdprods]

53 minutes ago, Blarg said:

I just get the feeling Chris Archer is fools gold. What he did in Tampa up to 2015 is not the pitcher he has been since. But people still think he can be that guy. 

I just used him as a name for that example. Ray, Stroman, Boyd, Bundy, whoever...

[Blarg]

The name keeps coming up in different threads. I don't see him as a guy that moves the needle forward for the Angels.

[Dtwncbad]

11 minutes ago, Blarg said:

The name keeps coming up in different threads. I don't see him as a guy that moves the needle forward for the Angels.

I think your caution is very fair.  I don’t think Archer is the beast he once seemed to be.  But that might be exactly what makes him not that difficult to acquire.

I still think the Angels would still need to aggressively pursue Cole and the Angels would still need Ohtani to be really good.

Archer might be the guy that fits in the middle.

Cole, Ohtani, Archer, Heaney, Canning

I am not complaining with that rotation.

 

[totdprods]

16 minutes ago, Blarg said:

The name keeps coming up in different threads. I don't see him as a guy that moves the needle forward for the Angels.

I know. I was just using his name as a placeholder instead of putting Boyd/Stroman/Ray/Bundy/Archer/Syndergaard/Bauer/Greinke.

Trying to keep this thread from becoming another trade thread.

Archer (as did all those other names) fit the same definition as Heaney in that example. Established MLB starter, capable of 5-6 innings, no opener, pitching on standard rest.

[totdprods]

Just now, RBM said:

Very interesting @totdprods

So let's say we win the Cole lottery and we open the season with:

1. Cole

2. Ohtani

3. (Lynn, Stroman, Boyd, Archer),

4. Canning

5. Heaney

6.. (Sandoval, Suarez, Pena, Barria)

If we sign a #1 like Cole I think the key will be who we add as the other guy. Did the #3 we picked up measure up. This is where a hit and miss may be revealed. 

This is why I really think the Angels are going to buy an arm at the deadline or this winter. If we use up all our money on Cole (likely if we do actually sign him) then we virtually have to trade to fill the other rotation slot cheaply. It’s also why I think acquiring an arm now would be smart - if we don’t sign Cole (or Ryu I guess, he’s about the only other clear #1-type) then we pretty much have to go with signing two #3 types to round out the rotation. That gets expensive and risky. Those FA SPs don’t work out too well - signing one is a little bold for Eppler as is, two sounds very unlikely based off how he works. So, I’m thinking a trade ensures they get one guy they want without risking the chance of having to offer two mid-sized FA contract. 

Then they can go all-in on Cole, knowing they already have the trade return arm as insurance for Cole-less scenarios.

Then round out the rotation and bullpen with that wide web of optionable arms - Madero, Barria, Suarez, Cole, Sandoval, Wantz, Ortega, De Horta, Pena, both Ramirezes, Beasley. Option them as needed to keep them fresh. Eventually, cream will rise to the top and a couple guys will settle as starters, a couple as long-relievers/depth, and a couple as future high-lev relievers.

That’s another reason why I don’t think Eppler will want to fill two rotation slots via FA this winter - we should be able to find that depth within - but it might take a year. Which aligns nicely with the control remaining for Ray, Stroman, Bumgarner, Minor, Gausman.

It allows Eppler to focus on going after Cole, or, failing that, only having to get one of the other FA SPs, with the rest of the money going to catcher, bullpen, bench to replenish depth of who was traded, or cheap flyer 1-yet SPs like Miley and Gio were this year.

[AngelsFanSince86]

I know Archer was just an example, but I think he would be a great addition.  This year is really his only bad year. The 3 years prior he was averaging about 6 innings a game and his FIP suggests he was a bit better than his ERA showed (although not as dominant as he once was). He still has a SO/9 of over 10.  

And he's with the Pirates now. Remember Cole was headed in the wrong direction before being traded to the Astros and reviving his dominance. 

If Archer could pitch 6 innings a game at a 4ish ERA for 33 games a season, that would be far better than anyone on the Angels have currently and go a long way towards them being a true contender.

[totdprods]

Archer trade chatter is here: 

 

[Claude]

4 hours ago, Blarg said:

I just get the feeling Chris Archer is fools gold. What he did in Tampa up to 2015 is not the pitcher he has been since. But people still think he can be that guy. 

I agree with this. I’ve seen that guy get lit up like a christmas tree. He’s either really good or really bad. 

[totdprods]

2 minutes ago, RBM said:

This came up in another thread. Can Lance Lynn opt out next year if he is traded before the deadline? He’s in year one of a three year deal. 

Also in that same thread posted a couple up, with the Archer discussion. 

(Not trying to be a dick or anything, I'm just losing track of what discussions are happening where)

[mmc]

Surprised so many want Archer after the Harvey/Cahill disasters.  Enough with the reclamation projects.  This team has needed serious rotation help for the last 10 years.  It’s time to add actual impact pitchers.

[Tank]

3 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

Surprised so many want Archer after the Harvey/Cahill disasters.  Enough with the reclamation projects.  This team has needed serious rotation help for the last 10 years.  It’s time to add actual impact pitchers.

So what’s your suggestion/solution?

[floplag]

We cant afford to deal away promising chips for another project in my opinion.  If there is even a question, you dont make the deal unless its just too good to pass on in our favor. 

[Dtwncbad]

3 minutes ago, floplag said:

We cant afford to deal away promising chips for another project in my opinion.  If there is even a question, you dont make the deal unless its just too good to pass on in our favor. 

So to be clear you are saying the Angels should not make a bad trade and only try to make a good trade.

Interesting angle.

[Claude]

11 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

^^^

With Pujols, Upton, Trout, Simmons and Cozart adding up to $115M in 2020 it’s going to be extremely difficult to sign Cole for $20M -$24M per and still field a team. 

Edited July 23, 2019 by Calzone 2

[Angel Oracle]

2 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

I think your caution is very fair.  I don’t think Archer is the beast he once seemed to be.  But that might be exactly what makes him not that difficult to acquire.

I still think the Angels would still need to aggressively pursue Cole and the Angels would still need Ohtani to be really good.

Archer might be the guy that fits in the middle.

Cole, Ohtani, Archer, Heaney, Canning

I am not complaining with that rotation.

 

Archer the past 3 1/2 years has NOT been a middle of the rotation guy, though.   ERA around 4.30 and WHIP around 1.30 since 2016, and since 2018 has only averaged about 5.4 innings/start.   That's more like #4/#5, especially when factoring in 2018/2019 stats. 

[Stradling]

24 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

So to be clear you are saying the Angels should not make a bad trade and only try to make a good trade.

Interesting angle.

Awesome. 

[Stradling]

9 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

With Pujols, Upton, Trout, Simmons and Cozart adding up to $115M in 2020 it’s going to be extremely difficult to sign Cole for $20M -$24M per and still field a team. 

Not at all.