You don't rebuild with the best player in the game...

[TroutAdell]

The biggest problem with trying to add players is the Angels lack the necessary prospects to trade. How many holes can you fill by trade? The Pujols contract is an albatross, we all know that. We also know that the cost for free agents is staggering. 

Where would this team be with a starting rotation of Richards, Skaggs, Heaney, Tropeano and whatever 5th guy you throw in? I would guess they would they would lead the Wild Card ( still not as good as Houston). Dipoto and his staff did a horrible job of acquiring and developing talent which left Eppler few avenues to improve the club. No depth at the upper levels  of the minors have left them with scouring the waiver wire to replace injured players.  There is no quick fix. There is not enough talent to trade to get competitive with Houston. Things have to fall right with all guys having career years. That is too much to ask for.

[floplag]

28 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

You can thank Albert, Josh and CJ for the failure to compete during the Trout years. They brought Arte and the fans false hope. 

Partially true, i also hold the FO accountable for not accepting mistakes and moving on.  They tossed the last couple years for no reason other than letting bad money fall off.  I get it, but i do not condone it under the financial circumstances of this club.  

[Stradling]

This teams biggest issue is lack of minor league talent that's near ready.  That's a MUCH bigger issue than Albert or Josh. 

[Ohtaniland]

6 minutes ago, Stradling said:

This teams biggest issue is lack of minor league talent that's near ready.  That's a MUCH bigger issue than Albert or Josh. 

That's a problem that is 3-5 years from fixing. Our 2004-2014 DNA allowed it to get this bad and it's not a quick fix.

[Blarg]

As long as there is a draft pick compensation for free agents and the Angels farm system is talent poor, there is little reason to over spend to fill one gap through free agency. 

I like the pace that Eppler is taking to resolve the Angels biggest problem, which is not payroll. It is replenishable talent.

We've seen a little of that in pitching depth that few thought we had going into this season. Now it just has to fill the position player ranks.

The floor of the Angels 25 man roster needs to rise above the Espinosa, Valbuena, Cron, Pennington, Revere, Marte and Franklin level. That is not going to be possible through free agency, that is too many butts on the bench so it has to start coming from the minor leagues. 

And that, my ADD friends, is going to take more time than money.

[Ohtaniland]

1 minute ago, Blarg said:

As long as there is a draft pick compensation for free agents and the Angels farm system is talent poor, there is little reason to over spend to fill one gap through free agency. 

I like the pace that Eppler is taking to resolve the Angels biggest problem, which is not payroll. It is replenishable talent.

We've seen a little of that in pitching depth that few thought we had going into this season. Now it just has to fill the position player ranks.

The floor of the Angels 25 man roster needs to rise above the Espinosa, Valbuena, Cron, Pennington, Revere, Marte and Franklin level. That is not going to be possible through free agency, that is too many butts on the bench so it has to start coming from the minor leagues. 

And that, my ADD friends, is going to take more time than money.

Excellent post. But you forgot Maybin. He's not a keeper long term. 

[floplag]

32 minutes ago, Stradling said:

This teams biggest issue is lack of minor league talent that's near ready.  That's a MUCH bigger issue than Albert or Josh. 

Agreed, so whats the answer... there are really only 2 paths, spend to content or wait it out and waste Trouts prime. 

[Angel Oracle]

Just now, floplag said:

Agreed, so whats the answer... there are really only 2 paths, spend to content or wait it out and waste Trouts prime. 

Both can be balanced.   Have good enough scouting that you don't have to hit the HR on FA signings, while continuing to build the farm.

Just stay away from those HR FA signings that have too solid of a chance at turning into dust, like signing Hackilton.  

[floplag]

14 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

Excellent post. But you forgot Maybin. He's not a keeper long term. 

Not sure i get why some are so down an Maybin.  I get that he doesnt put up a big avg. but hes plays great D and is putting up an almost 2 WAR even with the low average with the bulk of that coming from the O side (1.3 - 0.5)  OWAR 3rd behind Trout/Simmons, DWAR 3rd behind Simmons/Maldonado.
Not expensive, and combined with Trout/Calhoun gives us a very formidable OF.   Pending going after some stud, which i doubt we do, i would be fine with keeping him barring a total collapse in the second half.  

[Blarg]

20 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

Excellent post. But you forgot Maybin. He's not a keeper long term. 

Maybin isn't a concern, he's pulling his wieght and I wasn't referring to any given long term commitments.

[floplag]

4 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Both can be balanced.   Have good enough scouting that you don't have to hit the HR on FA signings, while continuing to build the farm.

Just stay away from those HR FA signings that have too solid of a chance at turning into dust, like signing Hackilton.  

True but if you want to contend now, or next season, the farm isnt going to produce in that time so again you really only have the 2 choices.  Spend, or wait it out. 
Any spend has risk... which is why i kinda like the Gordon idea, especially if we could pull it without losing Cron who can take 1B for the rest of the year and swim or drown.
I love speed guys, always have, it doesnt slump and creates havoc.  The idea of Maybin/Gordon in front of Trout/Pujols/Calhoun sounds like some fun baseball to me.  

[Ohtaniland]

4 minutes ago, floplag said:

 The idea of Maybin/Gordon in front of Trout/Pujols/Calhoun sounds like some fun baseball to me.  

Move Pujols down to the 6th spot or you may see a lot of GIDP's.

[ettin]

1 hour ago, CALZONE said:

You can thank Albert, Josh and CJ for the failure to compete during the Trout years. They brought Arte and the fans false hope. 

The Trout years are not over Claude.

[VariousCrap]

On 7/16/2017 at 10:39 AM, Hufflepuff said:

That's why I'm asking, who could they have signed? Adding more big contracts on top of bad contracts because we have a young superstar doesn't fix the problem.  It makes it worst.

 

They should have signed Daniel Murphy for 2B.  They blew it not getting him.

[Ohtaniland]

25 minutes ago, ettin said:

The Trout years are not over Claude.

We have three years left after this one to build the farm, a competitive 25 man roster with a long term sustainable winning formula. We will probably have a new manager in place and new coaches. Things are going to change. 

In reality we have 2 years left to negotiate with Trout 2018 and 2019. If he's not extended or traded by the time the 2020 season starts he will certainly be advised by his agent to hit the open market. If this happens then he will be traded (with his permission) right before the 2020 break as a rental for a far less package than we could receive today. So yes I believe we are wasting Trouts "great years" either through his performance on the field or the market value we can get for him now. 

On the flip side I would attempt to extend him as soon as this season concludes with some of the money that's being freed up. There's really no reason to wait unless Trout is not in their long term plans. 

 

[ettin]

1 minute ago, CALZONE said:

We have three years left after this one to build the farm, a competitive 25 man roster with a long term sustainable winning formula. We will probably have a new manager in place and new coaches. Things are going to change. 

In reality we have 2 years left to negotiate with Trout 2018 and 2019. If he's not extended or traded by the time the 2020 season starts he will certainly be advised by his agent to hit the open market. If this happens then he will be traded right before the 2020 break as a rental for a far less package than he could receive today. So yes I believe we are wasting Trouts "great years" either through his performance on the field or the market value we can get for him now. 

On the flip side I would extend him as soon as this season concludes with some of the money that's being freed up. There's really no reason to wait unless Trout is not in their long term plans. 

 

Claude this team will be very competitive in 2018. Save the thread. The only thing we agree on here is having Trout signed by Opening Day 2019.

You realize that there is not a single team in baseball that can afford to pay the price in prospects/players they would need to trade for Trout now? If we are at the 2020 trade deadline and Mike has not signed an extension we can trade him for a monster haul then not to mention half of the players on the team (Calhoun, Skaggs, Shoemaker, Heaney, and any other players we pick up in the near future before the 2018 season) and execute an instant rebuild that will allow us to compete for years after that.

You need to really sit down and look at the core of our team, the finances we have available and the options we will explore and acquire to really open your eyes to the possibilities Claude IMHO. This team will effectively compete in 2018 without a doubt.

[Ohtaniland]

34 minutes ago, ettin said:

Claude this team will be very competitive in 2018. Save the thread. The only thing we agree on here is having Trout signed by Opening Day 2019.

You realize that there is not a single team in baseball that can afford to pay the price in prospects/players they would need to trade for Trout now? If we are at the 2020 trade deadline and Mike has not signed an extension we can trade him for a monster haul then not to mention half of the players on the team (Calhoun, Skaggs, Shoemaker, Heaney, and any other players we pick up in the near future before the 2018 season) and execute an instant rebuild that will allow us to compete for years after that.

You need to really sit down and look at the core of our team, the finances we have available and the options we will explore and acquire to really open your eyes to the possibilities Claude IMHO. This team will effectively compete in 2018 without a doubt.

Well I did get Alex Curry to take a pic with the "A" of the CALZONE sign yesterday so that's encouraging. 

I do think that 2018 will hinge on how many of our injured pitchers can come back and sustain a full healthy season of baseball. But....2017 wasn't about pitching, it was about hitting and we haven't done very well. Also Albert will be another year older and if he's in the middle of the order we can expect the same ole same ole.

[stormngt]

On 7/16/2017 at 6:22 PM, tomsred said:

Part of that $70M will go to increases in contractural commitments to Trout and Simmons.  Also, unfortunately we don't have enough minor leaguers ready to come up and be productive for league minimum.  It's been said on here before, but nothing really will get fixed until we have some really hot snot minor leaguers ready to come up and play full time. And that will take some time.  Meanwhile we can be entertained with the criticisms.

If I am wrong than call me out.  But if I am correct the salary cap is based on the averages.  The salary increases of Trout and Simmons has no bearing.  If I am right can we please end this narrative!  It's like fake news.  It gets constantly brought up but it's inaccurate!

 

[ScottT]

It's about economics. 

[Farmbuildingfan]

On 7/16/2017 at 3:01 PM, beatlesrule said:

Again, he had to do that in order to draw 3 million fans.  He simply keeps the team afloat treading water.  If he really cared about winning, he would always be after the biggest and the best.  He would make sure he did EVERYTHING he could to put the absolute best product on the field at all times.  He would surround Trout with the best talent available to him.  He hasn't done any of those things.  Say what you will about the other LA team, but they sure aren't wasting Kershaws years.  They have the best or almost the best record in baseball and have been in the playoffs way more than the Angels have the last 5-6 years with a great farm and young talent to boot.  If Arte really wanted to win the World Series, he would be doing WAYYYYYYYY more than he has been.

Moreno might just be is a victim of his own lack of wisdom and short sightedness, so I don't know if we can evaluate his desire to win.

He either just wants to showcase players and does not care about winning, or he does care about winning, but  is just a very poor and unwise owner.

Regardless of which, he has to be among the worst owners in baseball.

None of the other 29 owners would likely even consider those Pujols or Hamilton contracts or put such little effort into scouting.. 

Moreno selling the team would make me much happier than grabbing a wild card this year.

 

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

8 hours ago, floplag said:

I love speed guys, always have, it doesnt slump and creates havoc.  The idea of Maybin/Gordon in front of Trout/Pujols/Calhoun sounds like some fun baseball to me.  

Speed may not slump but the bat of the speedster certainly does. Maybin has been slumping mightily for awhile now, If he fails to get on base his speed isn't any good sitting on the bench.

[ettin]

3 hours ago, stormngt said:

If I am wrong than call me out.  But if I am correct the salary cap is based on the averages.  The salary increases of Trout and Simmons has no bearing.  If I am right can we please end this narrative!  It's like fake news.  It gets constantly brought up but it's inaccurate!

 

In AAV we currently sit at about $170M, $25M below the threshold. However we have a lot of money coming off the books and if Street's and Nolasco's contracts are not picked up and Cron is traded we will have $70M under the threshold to spend in AAV. It is a FACT.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

3 hours ago, stormngt said:

If I am wrong than call me out.  But if I am correct the salary cap is based on the averages.  The salary increases of Trout and Simmons has no bearing.  If I am right can we please end this narrative!  It's like fake news.  It gets constantly brought up but it's inaccurate!

 

You are correct, I keep repeating this all the time. Yes Trout gets a raise no it doesn't effect the luxury tax. It does affect Arte's wallet but not the luxury tax limit. Plus the luxury tax limit increases a little every year of the new CBA.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

1 hour ago, Farmbuildingfan said:

None of the other 29 owners would likely even consider those Pujols or Hamilton contracts or put such little effort into scouting..

Not True the Marlins (I think it's the Marlins) out bid us for Pujols so Arte added a year or 2 to the contract to get Albert. With Hamilton, Arte said take this by some short deadline, or it will be revoked and he had very little time to consider other offers. The first 2 years of Wilson's deal were pretty good until he kept getting injured and had an operation and setbacks and more operations and finally just decided to race cars.

Texas had similar problems signing Fielder and Choo. The Dodgers payroll is astronomical and a lot of the money is owed to players not on their team any longer. The Dodgers spent their way into their problems but unlike Arte they spent their way out of it.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

On 7/16/2017 at 8:17 PM, beatlesrule said:

Pujols has a no trade clause.

Not that it matters.