Fowler or Eithier?

[Angel Oracle]

Ethier/Gentry (120 starts/42 starts) would have been a nice LF platoon.

But the Dogs have already cornered the market on LHP, and thus we couldn't send them some excess LHP of our own.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Angel Oracle

[DailyHalo]

I'm glad too see more people eventually voted for Dexter. Various said it perfectly though and It just makes it "easier" now that we don't match up, trade wise. It's not like Fowler is some crap defender either, he might not be the best center fielder in the League but the boy can play and fits our needs like a glove. Andre Ethier is the exact opposite of what this team needs. He just looks good because hes left handed, an out of place OF and is close to home. The only ex-dodger we should be focused on though is Hanley Ramirez. Most people think hes done but personally, I think Boston just doesn't mesh well with everyone. Getting Hanley is risky I know but If it's the money your worried about, don't, that can always be negotiated to a reasonable AAV.

[AngelsFanSince86]

Fowler's career:  104 OPS+, 107 wRC+, -56 DRS, -64.1 UZR

Ethier's career:  122 OPS+, 123 wRC+, -20 DRS, -31.9 UZR

 

All things considered such as age, the fact Fowler plays CF, and the fact they were about as valuable by both fWAR and bWAR, I would say its a safe bet to say they are about equivalent with Ethier being more reliable but Fowler having more upside.

 

So why give up a first round pick?  Sorry, but it just makes zero sense.  Its not happening for either player anyways, but if there were an equal chance for both it makes way more sense to bring in Ethier.  Anyone who wants to bring in Fowler just lacks any semblance of patience.  Fowler is not the difference maker some of the other FAs were.  Losing a first round pick that could potentially make his MLB debut in the next 3 years for a guy who is at the very low end of being an everyday starter according to WAR standards is just not a smart move.  You don't lose a 1st round pick for a guy who only puts you from "maybe if things go right they are a contender" territory to "yeah they will most likely contend for a wild card spot, but still may not get in" territory.  You only do that to put yourself in "yep, this is a contender" territory.

[tdawg87]

It's not like Fowler is some crap defender either

 

I'm not getting into this argument again but yes, he is awful defensively.

[Hollyw00d]

Ethier. Not even close. Plus, it'd be nice to have a gay dude on the team

Is that why women like him so much??

[DailyHalo]

Hey Tdawg, have you watched Fowler play on a daily basis? Other than what you read on paper, what makes you think he is a terrible defender exactly? What does Dexter Fowler NOT do, that this team desperately needs? Please, get into the argument. You have nothing but time on here apparently, so lets us all know EXACTLY why? As for 86, what does signing Fowler have to do with Patience? This team doesn't need a difference maker. We've allocated enough of our resources on "the franchise" type of player for now. We need players that are table setters and know how to play the fundamentals of the game. Its nice to have a player that can carry the team for a month or two but we dont NEED that. I'd rather have someone who shows up more than not and I'm sure If Dexter Fowler didn't have a pick associated with him, then he would already be an Angel. FYI, The dude most likely wont be a center fielder anymore anyways.

Edited February 5, 2016 by DailyHalo

[Angel Oracle]

I would gladly take Fowler, if he wasn't asking for so much and didn't cost the 17th overall pick.

[Adam]

Fowler is GMJ

[DailyHalo]

I agree, thats why we've got to try and get around losing the pick. I liked your Ethier/Gentry platoon, earlier in the off-season that would have been a solid move. What's a fair contract to you? I say 3 or 4 years at 12-14MM per is fair. If Dexter's agent is super with it, I can live with giving him 4/60MM. ^^SYKEEE!^^

Edited February 5, 2016 by DailyHalo

[tdawg87]

Hey Tdawg, have you watched Fowler play on a daily basis? Other than what you read on paper, what makes you think he is a terrible defender exactly? What does Dexter Fowler NOT do, that this team desperately needs? Please, get into the argument. You have nothing but time on here apparently, so lets us all know EXACTLY why? As for 86, what does signing Fowler have to do with Patience? This team doesn't need a difference maker. We've allocated enough of our resources on "the franchise" type of player for now. We need players that are table setters and know how to play the fundamentals of the game. Its nice to have a player that can carry the team for a month or two but we dont NEED that. I'd rather have someone who shows up more than not and I'm sure If Dexter Fowler didn't have a pick associated with him, then he would already be an Angel. FYI, The dude most likely wont be a center fielder anymore anyways.

 

Have you watched him on a daily basis?

 

I actually want the Angels to get Fowler. I've said so a few times. But it's for what he would provide offensively, I'd post his woeful defensive stats but you would just ignore them so I won't bother.

 

Nice rant btw.

[Angel Oracle]

Fowler is GMJ

Not totally true

Unlike one good season GMJHGH, Fowler has had a few solid seasons, granted it's hard to truly judge Rockies players' seasons.

I just wouldn't sign him for beyond 2 seasons for say $25 million total, and would not lose the 17th pick to get him.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Angel Oracle

[VariousCrap]

Fowler is GMJ

 

 

 

Hahaha....Fowler is better than GMJ ever was.

[VariousCrap]

Hey Tdawg, have you watched Fowler play on a daily basis? Other than what you read on paper, what makes you think he is a terrible defender exactly? 

 

 

 

That is exactly what it is with some on this board.  They've never watched these guys play and base everything on the certain stats.  Anybody who has watched Fowler play knows he is a pretty good defender in the field.

[Hollyw00d]

Hahaha....Fowler is better than GMJ ever was.

Eh, not really

[tdawg87]

That is exactly what it is with some on this board. They've never watched these guys play and base everything on the certain stats. Anybody who has watched Fowler play knows he is a pretty good defender in the field.

This is such an unbelievably archaic way of thinking. You really believe you know better than any statistic because you've "watched them play"?

You said Ethier is trash. But anyone who has seen him play, and also seen the stats, knows that is absolutely ridiculous.

I've watched Fowler a few times. He was not impressive defensively. The stats back that up. But you can keep ignoring them because you probably saw him make a sick play once.

[tdawg87]

Btw I want Fowler. He'd be a great leadoff option.

[DailyHalo]

Of course not, I can't even watch the Angels on a daily basis. You don't have to have a microscope on the guy too see that he's a competitor and plays the "style" of baseball Mike and the Angels Implement. He's honestly only been held back from minor injuries and bad luck. His injuries are coincidentally similar to David "Anti" Freese's though, which they both are victims of being hit in the hands! His legs have had only minor mishaps (that all athletes go through) and don't pose any long-term concerns. I wont lie, It's true that he has missed some time and almost every year in fact but some of those games missed are also from being on rebuilding teams with frequent turn-around and in-consistent playing time. I just haven't been convinced that these little nagging injuries hold any significant merit and your not helping the opposing side haha. Hey thanks TD, I work hard on these man. I've only been going on these long debacles because LF and 3b has been a major pain in the a** for this franchise, for way too long. We deserve competent players at these positions and should spend a little extra time on them. If you think it helps your case, DO IT! No one is going to scorn you for being too active of a member (They shouldn't). I spend to much time on my computer as is, so I personally won't justify to myself, the pulling up newfangled numbers. The numbers only tell part of the players story anyways and the real purpose of this site IMO, is to verbalize our individual "EYEBALL" tests. I mean if he played 145+ games a year, he would be a perennial All-star, most likely out of our price range and one of the most complete players in the League. We should be so fortunate that such a perfect match has fallen right into our laps. I get the impression that the qualifying offer process and Tax Threshold are going to change drastically in the next few seasons and we should take advantage of that. A sign and trade is treated like it's against the rules or like having a clubbed foot and we all just turn the other way. If it cost us a "measly" prospect as a transaction fee, then so be it but your not going to get a better example of a Major League baseball player than Dexter Fowler. He isn't a superstar (yet) but also isn't just some righty hitting specialist thats a ticking time bomb, like Ethier. As long as we keep our pick and he becomes a free agent after 2018, then both parties should be very interested IMO. 3/13-15MM seems very reasonable for this time of the year. 

[AngelsFanSince86]

Hey Tdawg, have you watched Fowler play on a daily basis? Other than what you read on paper, what makes you think he is a terrible defender exactly? What does Dexter Fowler NOT do, that this team desperately needs? Please, get into the argument. You have nothing but time on here apparently, so lets us all know EXACTLY why? As for 86, what does signing Fowler have to do with Patience? This team doesn't need a difference maker. We've allocated enough of our resources on "the franchise" type of player for now. We need players that are table setters and know how to play the fundamentals of the game. Its nice to have a player that can carry the team for a month or two but we dont NEED that. I'd rather have someone who shows up more than not and I'm sure If Dexter Fowler didn't have a pick associated with him, then he would already be an Angel. FYI, The dude most likely wont be a center fielder anymore anyways.

Just to clarify, my point about patience has to do with the fact the angels already let most of their options go. I think its better to be patient at this point and see how things pan out while keeping the pick for the future of the club. People are so anxious about upgrading LF that they'll take whatever scraps are left on the table. That's probably too harsh because Fowler is a very solid player. I don't want that to get lost in what I'm trying to say. I definitely think Fowler could give the team a good boost. I just see it as more of panic move then a smart move. It's a move you make because you decided you were out on good FAs and then at the last minute decided it was a mistake and so you sign the best player still out there. To me it really comes down to that pick. It's just not worth it. If they had signed Howie or maybe if they resign Freese then maybe it makes sense, but unless you are going all out then it makes no sense because it's not enough.

I just don't see this "potential". You talk like he's 27/28 and has just been held back by bad luck injuries. The guy is going to be 30. He's had full seasons, including last year. He had one of his better years last year, but it wasn't all star level. Although WAR is not the end-all-be-all, it tends to be pretty solid in showing a players value. An all star caliber player is usually a 5+ WAR player. Fowler has never come close to this. He's typically been worth less than half of that.  There are dozens of better examples of major league baseball players than Fowler.  And I don't just mean star players.  

I'm kinda confused on your last point. How are we going to keep our pick? Fowler is going to get something like 3/30. Why would he reject a 1 year, 15.8 mil offer and then sign a 3 year deal for less than that? I think I'm missing what you are trying to say.

Edited February 6, 2016 by AngelsFanSince86

[DailyHalo]

Your assuming that those other players were our main targets. Maybe Dexter is exactly who we've been waiting for but weren't going to sign him before the rest of the FA options. I just don't see how signing a player that fits us perfectly, as a panic move. If you don't want to lose a pick, why would you do it with Howie Kendrick and we would have looked dumb if we offered Freese one. You said I act like he's 28 and he hasn't even turned 30 but he's 29,  so yeah he basically is that age. Not like Andre Ethier though, who is going to be 34! Basically If a player gives written consent to move his contract, he can be sent anywhere. If everyone and the League agree's, you can pretty much do whatever you want. Its just a task to get three independent parties to agree on anything these days it seems. Fowler's options were to turned down a one year deal at a higher AAV then he should get or receive multiple years at less of an AAV. We all didn't just roll out of bed this year and realize that the QO isn't working for everyday players anymore. 

[AngelsFanSince86]

Your assuming that those other players were our main targets. Maybe Dexter is exactly who we've been waiting for but weren't going to sign him before the rest of the FA options. I just don't see how signing a player that fits us perfectly, as a panic move. If you don't want to lose a pick, why would you do it with Howie Kendrick and we would have looked dumb if we offered Freese one. You said I act like he's 28 and he hasn't even turned 30 but he's 29,  so yeah he basically is that age. Not like Andre Ethier though, who is going to be 34! Basically If a player gives written consent to move his contract, he can be sent anywhere. If everyone and the League agree's, you can pretty much do whatever you want. Its just a task to get three independent parties to agree on anything these days it seems. Fowler's options were to turned down a one year deal at a higher AAV then he should get or receive multiple years at less of an AAV. We all didn't just roll out of bed this year and realize that the QO isn't working for everyday players anymore. 

 

 

A couple things:  I thought you meant his whole contract was going to be for 13-15 mil.  You didn't specify AAV.  Usually when people put 3/30 or 3/15 the second number is the total unless otherwise specified, which you didn't.  You say Ethier is GOING TO BE 34, but then say Fowler is only 29.  I like how you try and separate them by an extra year by wording each persons age different. Last year was Fowler's 29 season.  He is GOING TO BE 30.  Ethier is 33 now and Fowler is 29.  

 

I specifically said it only makes sense to go after Fowler if they were also going to get a guy like Howie or Freese.  I never said they should have given Freese the QO so I don't know where you got that from.  I guess they could still sign Freese.  My point is, unless they are going to do another move for a solid, but uninspiring player (like Fowler), then it makes no sense to waste the draft pick because its not going to give them enough of an edge.  He isn't enough of a difference maker.  Whats the point?  The only reason you use that pick is to go all in. Just getting Fowler is not going all in.

 

I don't see how Fowler, with that pick attached, would be anyones first pick.  He is the minimum you hope your first round pick turns into and there were other guys like Span that are better players and didn't have a pick attached.  

[DailyHalo]

I feel like your nit-picking What I'm saying. I mean you're right, I probably should be more specific  in my messages but I also don't know why you would think that he would sign for $5MM a year? Fowler is going to be 30 and Andre is going to be 34, what about it? Dexter is in his prime and Andre is now out of his. You act like he's around Albert's age or something, while (at-most) he's ONLY 2 years older than your potential/mock age. I mean It's obvious that you still think that it's a big name player for Left Field or bust but we really don't. Dexter is the "game changer" we've been looking for and he'll cost a quarter of what the other Free Agents got. Compared to what this team has had for the past few seasons, an average Left Fielder will probably look like a borderline MVP candidate.

Edited February 7, 2016 by DailyHalo

[AngelsFanSince86]

I feel like your nit-picking What I'm saying. I mean you're right, I probably should be more specific  in my messages but I also don't know why you would think that he would sign for $5MM a year? Fowler is going to be 30 and Andre is going to be 34, what about it? Dexter is in his prime and Andre is now out of his. You act like he's around Albert's age or something, while (at-most) he's ONLY 2 years older than your potential/mock age. I mean It's obvious that you still think that it's a big name player for Left Field or bust but we really don't. Dexter is the "game changer" we've been looking for and he'll cost a quarter of what the other Free Agents got. Compared to what this team has had for the past few seasons, an average Left Fielder will probably look like a borderline MVP candidate.

 

Sorry if it seems that way.  It was just the way you put it.  You basically said, "actually Fowler is only 29, while Ethier will be 34."  I was only nitpicking because you tried to make a distinction by making Ethier sound old as possible and Fowler young as possible.  I guess at this point its a matter of opinion.  I'm not a big name LF or bust guy.  I've specifically said in every single response that I think if you are only going to add one upgrade it has to be a big name LF OR Fowler plus some other solid addition like Howie or Freese because someone like Fowler won't give you the boost that the team needs all by himself.  I don't disagree he would improve the team by a decent amount, but not worth the draft pick.  I just think that is short sighted at this point.  That is just my opinion.  Once again, if we were going to go for a guy at Fowlers level we should have tried for Span.  There is no indication they even tried to get him so I just don't see them even trying for Fowler.  Your opinion is that Fowler will be better than he has been and hasn't reached his potential.  There is absolutely zero prior evidence to back that, but its your opinion so I respect that.  

 

As far as salary goes, I just think 13-15 mil AAV with the draft pick is ridiculous.  He's not getting that much because he isn't worth that much even by todays market standards.  So I figured given that you put it in the standard format that you meant something different. 

 

Anyways, that doesn't matter.  You have a very optimistic view of Fowler.  Thats fine.  I personally think its naive and short sighted given the Angels history with giving away draft picks along with their weak farm to sign Fowler.  He just isn't worth it and thats all it comes down to for me.  

[Chuck]

Btw I want Fowler. He'd be a great leadoff option.

 

Yeah I like him at #1 and Escobar in the #2 hole before Trout. 

[DailyHalo]

I didn't know where to put it but Happy Birthday Babe Ruth. Hope I can be as great as you one day. Your the G.O.A.T!

[tdawg87]

Yeah I like him at #1 and Escobar in the #2 hole before Trout.

You WOULD like a Hispanic in the 2 hole.